Dialing vs Holdover

[Blkram]

An interesting topic of conversation has started in another thread, and I thought I would ask my question here instead, to respect the OPs original thread there...

For those who dial and shoot, or those who have holdover BDC type reticles (B&C, TDS, BRH, etc.), what are the advantages to you in your style of aiming when shooting and/or hunting?
Or do you use both, depending on your style of shooting at the moment? (Target shooting vs hunting)

Myself, I love the Leupold Boone & Crocket reticles, and the older Kahles/Swarovski TDS reticles. As a hunter first, when in the field, I find this faster to adjust my aiming point on the animal in that I can just range, aim and shoot vs range, dial and shoot. But this just my preferred practice.
While many of my Leupolds have the option for the CDS cap to be cut for free for the rifle's preferred load, I have not done so as yet.

I have just acquired a couple of used VX-6HD scopes, one a 3-18x44 with the illuminated B&C reticle, and the other a 3-18x50 with the illuminated Varmint Hunters reticle, as they illuminate the entire BDC portion of the reticle. Having two of the illuminated B&C reticles already (a 2-12x42 and a 3-18x50), I like them a lot for their better quality glass and improved coatings, for low light hunting scenarios, as I can dial down the intensity of the illumination so that it doesn't overwhelm the aiming point on the target animal in low light conditions. And the illuminated reticle stands out better than a black reticle, especially on darker animals such as bear or moose, in the thick timber, or lower light conditions.

The newer Gen 2 sopes only illuminate the centre crosshair, not the entire BDC portion of the reticle. I can see where the smaller illuminated cross, just at the crosshair would be nicer as it would not cover so much of the aiming point on a target under lower light conditions, and the CDS dial would negate the use of the BDC portion of the reticle when you have more time to range, dial and shoot at long distance targets where the additional accuracy potential can be appreciated more. Not owning one as yet, I have no direct comparison from the field to judge the pros and cons between the two for myself.
The biggest advantage here (to me) is that it is a toolless system for setting your Zero. I like this...I would love to get a Gen 2, but the price of these scopes with the current exchange ratee and tariffs is very expensive here north of the border. And I am getting both of these used, excellent conditions scopes for the price of one new Gen 2.

With these two new-to-me scopes, as they will be going on my 25 Creedmoor, and the planned for the next build (a 257 AI Improved), And will be mainly for deer, sheep, and antelope in wide open spaces, I am wondering if I should order the CDS caps for more precise holds on longer shots (300-500 yards) under normal lighting conditions not requiring the illumination, and where I may have more time for the range, dial, shoot action, or target practice to verify the POIs and just get better at shooting the longer distances during practice in preparation for the hunts.
Thoughts on this from those who practice this method?

 

[JD338]

Good question GIL.
I do both but it depends on the rifle/scope and the circumstances at that moment. I have three VX-6HD scopes with the TMOA illuminated reticle. Even though I’m a one bullet/load per rifle kind of guy I prefer the basic MOA turret as opposed to a CDS reticle that is set up for yardage.
Using a LRF to get my distance I normally use a proven drop chart and dial my distance but I will sometimes just use the MOA hash marks in the TMOA reticle to make minor corrections for distance.
With my VX-5HD scopes, they all have the FireDot standard DuPlex reticle and I dial in the distance if needed.
For Sue, I set her up with CDS dials in yardage. All she needs to do is laser distance, dial that on her turret and shoot. It’s easier for her and it works well.
JD338

 

[JMRhino]

This is a fun topic.

My response is probably more about how my brain processes information and less about the pros/cons of the various systems. I prefer 1st focal plane with sub-tensions in MOA for target shooting. I know MILs should make more sense, but my brain thinks in feet and inches.

With respect to BDC recitals vs dialing, I prefer dialing with a single point of aim such as a Fire dot for hunting scenarios. Seems simpler to me. I never dial for wind. For me, there seems to be too many variables using B&C or BDC type reticles for hunting.

I am very fond of my Leupold's with the CDS and the fire dot for open areas, but it's not needed in the timber.

 

[xphunter]

Jack Of Adjusting All Ways & Master Of None...
This is where I typically say, I can help you answer your question(s) better by a phone call than texting or typing.
It is just figuring out what is going to work best for that person, with that scope for that type of hunting situation.

 

[Charlie-NY]

I have found that the B&C type hash marks work very well out to about 400yds. They are fast and simple to use. Of course, the hash marks aren't perfect for every bullet and speed. Typically, I sight the 400yd hash mark in dead on at 400yds and then check the 200yd and 300yd POIs to see how close they are to the point of aim. They are generally very close.

Other than that, it's hard to beat a dial up scope. They are a bit slower, and you need to remember to zero the scope, but they can't be beat for shooting beyond 400yds.

 

[JMRhino]

I have found that the B&C type hash marks work very well out to about 400yds. They are fast and simple to use. Of course, the hash marks aren't perfect for every bullet and speed. Typically, I sight the 400yd hash mark in dead on at 400yds and then check the 200yd and 300yd POIs to see how close they are to the point of aim. They are generally very close.

Other than that, it's hard to beat a dial up scope. They are a bit slower, and you need to remember to zero the scope, but they can't be beat for shooting beyond 400yds.

That’s a great idea. I have never thought about zeroing at the furthest distance and then reverse engineer the closer ones. I have an older VX 4.5x14 on my 257 WSM and I may need to explore that option. I stuck between using the large or small triangle on the magnification selector lever.

 

[Blkram]

Thanks for the responses so far! Keep them coming.

I forget to mention in opening post that I do verify my POI on the lower BDC points of both my B&C and TDS reticles, with each rifle that has a scope scope with such, out to 400 and 500 yards, depending on which range I am at and the furthest targets available at each.

I do agree that a scope with a BDC type reticle or a CDS cap is usually not needed in the timber...but I have seen way too many moose and bears across large cut blocks enter the timber under low light conditions at 400+ yards where having that illuminated reticle and/or the BDC type reticle or CDS cap would be an advantage to aid in aiming at that dark animal back in the darker woods.

I will also note here that in side by side comparisons of the newer and better glass (VX-5HD and VX-6HD) to my older scopes (VX-III and 3 in both 2.5-8 and 3.5-10 scopes), set at the same approximate power magnification, where the exit pupil size was comparable when the objective lense was not equal (or close to equal such as the 36mm vs 42mm or 40mm vs 44mm), that there was a definite advantage to the better glass' ability to define objects and animals back in the timber at last light. With the older scopes, i could easily see the moose while it was still out in the cut block, but lost it when it entered the dark timber. Switching to the rifles with the newer scopes, I was not only able to see individual tress and stumps back in the forest, but could also pick out that moose or bear as it moved even further back into the woods. A definite improvement in visibility!

I am glad to have that newer VX-6HD 2-12x42 with Illuminated B&C reticle on my 338 Federal which is capable of shots on moose and bears out to 400 yards, and the VX-5HD 2-10x42 on my 358 Win with Firedot reticle even it won't be used much past 250 yards.

 

[xphunter]

Good Glass, Good Reticle (Different for different folks), Lit Reticle, and Zero Stops are all good stuff.
There are some really cool scopes out there, that have a combination of external turrets, FFP reticle. lit reticle, and internal information (Heads up display), where one doesn't even have to look at the their turret, but continue looking through the scope, while they dial. Even more is coming out in the future.
It is like a smorgasbord out there.

 

[JMRhino]

Thanks for the responses so far! Keep them coming.

I forget to mention in opening post that I do verify my POI on the lower BDC points of both my B&C and TDS reticles, with each rifle that has a scope scope with such, out to 400 and 500 yards, depending on which range I am at and the furthest targets available at each.

I do agree that a scope with a BDC type reticle or a CDS cap is usually not needed in the timber...but I have seen way too many moose and bears across large cut blocks enter the timber under low light conditions at 400+ yards where having that illuminated reticle and/or the BDC type reticle or CDS cap would be an advantage to aid in aiming at that dark animal back in the darker woods.

I will also note here that in side by side comparisons of the newer and better glass (VX-5HD and VX-6HD) to my older scopes (VX-III and 3 in both 2.5-8 and 3.5-10 scopes), set at the same approximate power magnification, where the exit pupil size was comparable when the objective lense was not equal (or close to equal such as the 36mm vs 42mm or 40mm vs 44mm), that there was a definite advantage to the better glass' ability to define objects and animals back in the timber at last light. With the older scopes, i could easily see the moose while it was still out in the cut block, but lost it when it entered the dark timber. Switching to the rifles with the newer scopes, I was not only able to see individual tress and stumps back in the forest, but could also pick out that moose or bear as it moved even further back into the woods. A definite improvement in visibility!

I am glad to have that newer VX-6HD 2-12x42 with Illuminated B&C reticle on my 338 Federal which is capable of shots on moose and bears out to 400 yards, and the VX-5HD 2-10x42 on my 358 Win with Firedot reticle even it won't be used much past 250 yards.

I love my Gen II VX6HD 2-12x42 on my 7–08. Probably my favorite optic in my safe for my hunting style and region.

 

[JD338]

I love my Gen II VX6HD 2-12x42 on my 7–08. Probably my favorite optic in my safe for my hunting style and region.

I have a VX-5HD (gen2) 3-15x42mm on my 6.5 Wby RPM. It has excellent glass and the toolless turret cap is a nice feature.

JD338

 

[jimbires]

I do both . I have taken deer with both . I have a few dial up scopes and a few drop reticle scopes . it takes time to dial , using a reticle is quicker . most rifle cartridges bullet drops are very consistent out to 300 yards . things start to change at 400 yards , but not tremendously . there will be big bullets at slow velocity , and light bullets at super high velocity , that will always break this rule . this consistency is how these reticles work as well as they do . I always use a 200 yard zero with my rifles , except for my dial up scopes , they get a 100 yard zero . when hunting I can just turn the elevation up to 200yards , if I desire . I use the standard MOA turrets on my dial up scopes .

the reticle scopes I have now are the Leupold B&C reticles . I use a 200 zero . I'll test the reticle to be sure it matches out at the longer distances . sometimes they match up about perfectly . at longer distances , if it starts to differ much , I'll make changes . usually I can get them to where I might be 1" high at 200 , and maybe 1 " or 2 " inches low at 400 yards . I just make minor adjustments until things match up without being way off , at either near , or far . it has always been doable . most of these reticles call for a 100 yard zero for slower cartridges , I've never had to do this . I relate these reticles to a 4 pin archery sight . know the distance , use the corresponding sight , and shoot . I've never used the Zeiss rapid Z reticles . I'm guessing the rapid Z 800 , would be very difficult to get aligned at the longer distances . things really start to change past 600yards .

dialing up , there is no give or take on this .set the scope dead nuts on at 100 yards zero . when using the scope , you rangefind the target , dial the correction , and shoot . yes , it's slower than shooting off the reticle , but it is precise . dialing allows for temp , altitude , weather corrections .

on a regular duplex reticle , I sight in at 200 yards . I can hold right on out to about 250 yards . at 300 yards lay the reticle on a whitetails back , the bullet will drop into the vitals .

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Years ago, I read an article called shooting the duplex. For standard calibers such as 270,30-06 and such with a Leupold duplex reticle sight in 2 inches high at 100yds this will put you on at 200yds. 250yards hold high shoulder, 300yards hold on the hairline of the back. At 350 yards place the top of the bottom post on the middle of the kill zone. It works I've tried and done it several times. Fast forward to reticles with holdover dots for me the most consistent has been Leupold LR now Creedmoor, Burris followed by Vortex. Still depends on caliber and velocity. Spending time at the range tweaking your sight in for rifle caliber will determine what works best for you. Have purchased couple of Leupold with CDS and have been using them at the range getting set up. More precise if time allows in a hunting situation for sure at longer ranges. I guess bottom line is what you get used to, how far you'll be shooting and what works best for each individual.