243 RL22 data

[designated harvester]

I recently purchased the Nosler Reloading Manual fifth edition and noticed that the maximum load shown for the 243 using 95 gr. ballistic tip was still shown as 42.5 grains of RL22. The same data was given in 3rd. edition manual. When I started to work up a load in '95 I thought it was a mistake so checked data from Alliant and one other source I can't recall. All sources showed the close to the same #s. I then looked at data for 6mm Rem. and everyone showed 48 gr. as max so I started with 42 1/2 grs. in my 243 and worked up to 46 1/2 which produced the velocity shown for maximum load. The starting load of 42 1/2, which was shown as max, delivered velocity of 2640 fps, 46 1/2 gave me an average of 2992 fps.

Why has this mistake not been corrected?
If someone started load developement at 42 1/2 gr. minus 10% would dangerous presssures result?
Pancho[/code]

 

[Goat]

This interests me as well, I have some RL22 I planned on using for .243 per the Nosler manuals data, but now I think I'll wait until this is cleared up. :?

 

[FOTIS]

My max load was about 45-46 gr of RL 22. This was in a SAVAGE 11F.

 

[designated harvester]

Goat, I don't think we'll get any help from the pro side. I e-mailed Alliant and got back a generic response that did nothing to answer the question raised.

It's a shame because RL22 is the best powder I have found for the 6mms with heavier bullets that I have worked up loads for. One was a Wby 240 mag that would shoot just about anything to 1 1/2 inches but the only load that satisfied me was 54 gr. RL22, F210M, 95 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, 3272 fps, .657"/3 shot groups. With 243s I settled on 46 1/2 grs. RL22 w/ F210M for the 95 gr. NBT, went up to 47 but velocity dropped off as did accuracy.

 

[Goat]

I'm still curious as to what Nosler has to say, butI'll probably work up my own load this weekend when I get a chance.

 

[2ndtimer]

I'm still curious as to what Nosler has to say, butI'll probably work up my own load this weekend when I get a chance.

Unfortunately, Nosler has already answered in the form of their latest loading manual. Based on their testing with their test barrels, they have established a safe maximum for Reloder 22 at what they have published. They are supremely confident that this load will be safe to use in any modern rifle chambered for the cartridge in question. They cannot (and should not) speculate as to what may be safe in YOUR particular rifle. Should you choose to go beyond what they have published, you do so at your own risk. This is not to say that some of you haven't worked up to loads that are safe, but without extensive pressure testing, how can you be sure? I try not to exceed published load data, but then that's me.

 

[designated harvester]

Here is the reply to my second e-mail to Alliant:

At some point, I will get the lab to shoot this again. Don't know how soon
it will happen, but I will make a note to shoot it again. Our loads sounds
a bit too conservative. Thanks for your note and have a nice weekend.

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

I've been shooting and loading 243s and 6MMs for 47 years and have never seen such a discrepancy as big as the data shown between the two calibers. Currently shooting 3 243s and 1 6MM.

Another questionable load shown in the Nosler manual is for the 70 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip in the 6MM using H414, 47 grs. with the 6MM for 3469 fps and 47 1/2 grs. for3630 with the 243. My notes show up to 49 grs H414 with F215 primer and Remington brass with no signs of pressure for the 6MM. I found 48 1/2 to be best for speed and accuracy.
Going to try the load with Federal GM215 M primers tomorrow.
Pancho

 

[Goat]

I'm still curious as to what Nosler has to say, butI'll probably work up my own load this weekend when I get a chance.

Unfortunately, Nosler has already answered in the form of their latest loading manual. Based on their testing with their test barrels, they have established a safe maximum for Reloder 22 at what they have published. They are supremely confident that this load will be safe to use in any modern rifle chambered for the cartridge in question. They cannot (and should not) speculate as to what may be safe in YOUR particular rifle. Should you choose to go beyond what they have published, you do so at your own risk. This is not to say that some of you haven't worked up to loads that are safe, but without extensive pressure testing, how can you be sure? I try not to exceed published load data, but then that's me.

I was referring to Nosler, the poster on this board, not Nosler the manual :wink: Alliant is evidently not going to be any help in this matter, so I was hoping maybe he could clear it up

 

[2ndtimer]

"I was referring to Nosler, the poster on this board, not Nosler the manual Wink Alliant is evidently not going to be any help in this matter, so I was hoping maybe he could clear it up"

So was I. Nosler the poster works for Nosler, so I can't imagine he would be able to recommend anything other than the manual data, until and unless they (nosler the company) revise their data with new testing. I have read posts on other boards that imply that there can be fairly wide variations from lot to lot of the Alliant powders, particularly Reloder 19, and that maximum loads seem to vary by as much as 3 grains from lot to lot in the larger cases. I am confident that the reason Nosler the poster hasn't replied to your post is due to legal constraints of liability concerns. I would be very surprised if an employee of Nosler, Inc. would advise anyone on a public forum to exceed the published maximum loads in the manual. (Although it is possible that such loads could be safe in your particular rifle, they may be excessive in mine)

 

[designated harvester]

My main concern regarding this issue is the question at what point does a low charge of a slow burning powder become dangerous. I remember warnings in some publications that too light a charge can cause the powder to "flash" creating extremely high pressures, this isn't mentioned in my Nosler manuals.

I don't start developing a load with the maximum listed or the load given by a writer, acquaintance, or whatever source, I usually back off 10% and work up using a chronograph and checking for signs of pressure.

When I started with RL22 I looked at the data in Nosler manual #3 for the 243, then looked at the data for the 6MM in the same manual. Found a difference of 5 1/2 grains in the listed maximum loads. I then checked Alliant data finding similar data although the load was for a 100 gr. bullet.
This 5 1/2 gr. difference for two caliber where I was accustomed to a difference of a grain and a half or 2 grains since there is only 3 grains difference in water capacity for the 2 cartridge cases led me to start with the max. listed since I guessed it would be safer than backing off 10% from the max. shown.
A less experienced reloader might not go to the same lengths before starting to load and find out the hard way that 38.5 is too light a load with RL22.

I have been using 46 1/2 grs. RL 22, F210M, 95 gr. NBT for better than 9 years in 2 rifles and and am using it in three currently and have found excellent accuracy, sped and case life so I'm a happy camper.

Still want to know if 38 1/2 grains is a safe load.
Pancho

 

[designated harvester]

Given that 38.5 RL22 is listed in the Nosler manual for the 95 gr. NBT maybe 2ndtimer would like to try it and report back on the results.
After all Nosler says it's safe.
Pancho

 

[2ndtimer]

Given that 38.5 RL22 is listed in the Nosler manual for the 95 gr. NBT maybe 2ndtimer would like to try it and report back on the results.
After all Nosler says it's safe.
Pancho

I would have no qualms about trying any load listed in Nosler's reloading manual, although it is possible that I may experience pressure signs prior to reaching the published maximum in my particular rifle. The key being my particular rifle. That is why all loading manuals advise to start low and gradually work up. As to the "detonation" of low charges of slow burning powders, I recall reading an article that a ballistics lab attempted to produce just such an event using a large case and surplus H-4831 powder and were unable to produce the result, going as low as 40% of customary charge weight. Still I believe it is possible, and would never consider dramatically reducing charges of slow burning powders in large cases. At best, they would give erratic ignition and poor accuracy. At worst, perhaps being dangerous. But given your load of 46.5 gr of RL-22 as maximum (according to Pancho), the 38.5 gr load is still 83% of your load and I believe would be perfectly safe. I certainly would not suggest going any lighter, but have no concerns about safety of such a load.
I also agree with your observations comparing the 6mm Rem and .243 Win maximum loads. It seems there shouldn't be that big of a difference, given the very slight difference in case capacity.
As to trying the 38.5 gr load, if I still had a .243, I would be happy to. Unfortunately, I am no longer in the .243 Win. business, am only in the .270 WSM and 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser business at this time. Interesting discussion.

 

[NOSLER]

As previously stated, we will never suggest a load higher than our book loads.

The data in book 5 is correct, I can say that because it takes us nearly a year to proof every page.

I went back into the records vault to research this question and the data was shot with a 24" barrel and 42.5grains of RL-22 is max for the 95gr BT.

Now please keep in mind. All chronographs are different and unless they were set up the exact same to our conditions in the test facility there will be variations. After discussing this with multiple parties within our organization, and reproofing the data- 42.5grains of RL22 will result in 3000fps out of a 243 WIN given a 24"barrel.

 

[Goat]

Thanks alot guys, this has all been really informative. I guess I'll just work with what the Nosler data recommends and see what I get. Thanks again. 8)

 

[designated harvester]

Shot the Sako L57 with 23 7/8" barrell and the Model 70 with 21 1/2"
barrell this afternoon. 68 degrees, 660 feet above sea level, 95 NBT, 46 1/2 grs. RL 22, F210M primer, Winchester brass. Sako was 3167 fps, M 70 was 3118 fps. Primers were not as flat as the Federal factory 100 gr. loads I used as foulers. Oehler chronagraph.

Also tried 6MM custom Santa Barbara Mauser, 24" barrell with the 70 gr. NBT, 48 1/2 grs. H414, Federal 215 Gold Medal Match primer, Winchester brass, 3680 fps. No signs of high pressure, again the primers were not as flat as the factory round used as fouler.

Looking forward to hearing your results Goat.

 

[NOSLER]

If the guys in Ballistics have a moment in the next few days I will replicate the load posted by Harvester. That way we can talk apples to apples.

 

[designated harvester]

Nosler, I did run 1 round across the chrono with the Sako and 70 gr. NBT , 47.5 grs H 414, Federal 210 M, winchester case. I'm still breaking in the barrell so only tried the 1 round that showed 3651 fps. That's pretty close to what your manual shows so I don't think my guns are all out of whack.

Looking forward to seeing what your ballistic lab comes up with re the RL 22.
Thanks ,
Pancho

 

[designated harvester]

Bought a box of 90 gr. BTs to try in the Sako L57. Found that 47 1/2 grs. RL 22, F210M primer with Winchester brass works very well. 3258 fps and a .253" 3 shot group. No signs of high pressures.
Have put about 100 rounds through the rifle so it should be broken in. Have tried 5 shot groups but they go over an inch. Not surprising considering the old Sakos were bedded in the traditional manner.
I'm very happy with the Sako, feels great in hands, very fast compared to my other 243s and more accurate for the first 3 shots. Shame that it's so pretty I'm reluctant to take it to the brush.

Waiting to hear from you Nosler.
Pancho