25-06 running slow?

[ksubuck]

117g Interlock bullets.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Barrel length?

 

[Guy Miner]

117g Interlock bullets.

Wow... low indeed, with 117's at 2725 fps... That's slower than my .308 Win with 168's... Dang...

I mean, 2725 fps will kill a deer, but it's not the kind of velocity we buy our .25-06's for... Must be very nice and pleasant to shoot though. Hmm.

I haven't run any factory ammo through mine in several years, not sure I ever did put it over a chronograph. My usual 115 gr handloads are at either 3120 fps, or 3190 fps, depending on the bullet & powder charge. That's with a factory 24" Remington.

Good luck with your loading efforts for that rifle.

Regards, Guy

 

[Oldtrader3]

That was one of the reasons that I started handloading. The factories often do not meet their own advertised MV. That and the fact, that back in the 1960's, factory ammo was not particularly accurate. Most ammo now is pretty accurate but shooting 7mm Rem Mags at 2750 fps, instead of 3050 fps does not do a lot for me.

 

[M7025-06]

Not surprised by the chrony numbers for Hornady factory ammo. I ran 5 rounds of factory Hornady 117 gr Interlocks through my chrony a few months ago (25-06 24'' barrel Model 70). Not one of them went over 2550 fps and accuracy was horrible.

ksubuck...my experience with my 25-06 is the slower the powder-the better, but as I'm finding out with mine...it is a finicky caliber. Keep working up and you should find something you like.

 

[FOTIS]

Primer you are using?

 

[BretN]

Sounds like you are on the right track working your loads up. That BOSS system kinda throws another variable into it though. I always liked the idea, but have never owned one. My brother has one and he follows the Browning guidelines and it will shrink groups. Maybe get the load up to your gun's max or so, and then re-test in small increments around the recommended numbers for the BOSS system. See if you can have both speed and accuracy.

Don't forget though that most of the deer you shoot with it probably can't tell the difference in fps when you are posing for photos with them. I have to keep reminding myself that as I have had troubles getting my first deer rifle to shoot better. I've gotten it to just under an inch and have to be happy with that. I'll never sell it. If you like the rifle, you keep it and live with it. If not, sell it or rebuild it. Good luck with the project either way. Bret

 

[DrMike]

Bret, welcome aboard. I note this is your second post. Always glad to see others sharing out of the wealth of their experience. You are correct in that we do tend to chase velocity and the animals seldom know the difference. I doubt that any of us will ever really change, but we know it is the truth. You touched a true subject when you noted that we keep rifles we like, even when they don't perform precisely as we want. One of my .280s had "a slow barrel." Nothing I did would make it shoot hotter. Eventually, after well over 250 rounds down the pipe, the loads began to pick up a little. However, from the start the rifle shot 139/140 grain bullets very accurately. I took quite a few mule deer and whitetails with those "slow" bullets. However, I loved the rifle and refused to let it go. Trust you continue to post and to share. Again, welcome aboard.

 

[BretN]

Thanks Mike. Funny you should mention .280. That is my problem child Win 70 push feed featherweight. I'll not buy another gun with that thin a barrel again, but I won't get rid of it either. I'm not an expert at all, but know how frustrating it can be to get a gun/load squared away. Sometimes I have to remind myself, you haven't taken a shot over 100 yards in years, except for one trip out west. I know it's a lot bigger deal for you guys out west as I didn't fair so well out there at long range on the Wyoming prairie.

 

[DrMike]

I had a push feed Winchester Featherweight chambered in .280 that shot very well, indeed. My current Featherweight is a Classic. It did eventually come around and shoot very well.

 

[ksubuck]

Its a 22 inch barrel according to the manufacturer, but 2 inches is the BOSS so it really doesn't count as velocity generating barrel length.

My problem is that the low velocities are not stabilizing the rounds enough to be accurate. Even at book max loads I am still seeing terrible accuracy. The BOSS lets me bring them in some, but a 4 to 5 MOA rifle does not cut it. The factory loads shot 9 MOA the other day. Seriously, larger than a pie plate at 100 yards.

I figure if I can figure out where the pressure is going or if I go against book max and stoke the charge up, I might find the velocity I need to stabilize the heavier bullets. Just never went much over book max.

I have found numerous resources that run several grains over what Nosler recommends. But I have seen many loads in the Nosler manual that are pretty much dead on with velocity and pressure predictions in all of my other rifles. This makes me nervous. What is so different with reloading this 25-06? Almost wonder if the previous owner ran Tubbs final finish through it and opened up the bore a bit too much. Think I will play a little more with it, but not much more before it gets a new barrel.

 

[Guy Miner]

Tell ya... There's a time to cut your loss.

I sold a BEAUTIFUL .25-06 Win Model 70 years ago... Gorgeous... It simply wouldn't shoot accurately. No matter what I did to the loads or to the rifle. I hope some Model 70 collector guy is happy with it... Beautiful rifle. No accuracy.

Yours has accuracy and velocity issues?

Might be time to go find the rifle you want instead of trying to keep working with one that gives you gray hairs.

Just a thought.

Guy

 

[Oldtrader3]

Have you checked the BOSS alignment and bore clearance on your rifle? I have owned a couple of Model 70's with the BOSS on them. The BOSS does not affect muzzle velocity at all on my rifles. Mine were a .280 Rem and a .30-06 Model 70's, both of which are extremely accurate and the muzzle velocity is spot on for the barrel length and the loads that I was using.

My grandson has the .280 and I still have the .30-06 Model 70 BOSS. They both are extremely accurate and both deliver expected ballistics and muzzle velocity for the net barrel lengths which they have, minus the BOSS. My .30-06 consistently shoots under 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards and has for the 20 years that I have owned it.

 

[BretN]

ksubuck, I'm with you on the Nosler book data and not wanting to push much past that. I started loading in the early 90's with a Hornady book where the data was way too hot for my .280. Seriously cratered primers and nearly stuck bolts are too scary for me. I've stuck with Nosler data and find it's pretty spot on for the old 280 and my newer guns, the Sierra book is good too.

Does the Boss unscrew completely? Can you take it out of the equation entirely? If not, you sure aren't getting much for accuracy with those higher fps loads. Rebuild or trade might be the way to go.

I might trade off a Browning Citori that sits in the safe for the new Rem 700 long range (26" varmint barrel in a Bell and Carlson Medalist M40 stock). I looked at a $200 Savage donor gun and then calculated what it would cost to make it sort of a long range platform/target gun, but then I'd have a Savage and I just can't make myself like those actions. But the Remington I like and Cabela's sells them for $699. They chamber that one in the 25-06 too I think. Just a thought...

 

[Oldtrader3]

The BOSS can easily be unscrewed from the barrel fitting which holds it on. You can also buy a non recoil reducing BOSS with no holes in it for about $15, which allows you to use the BOSS for its intended purpose with out the recoil reduction. It sounds to me as though someone installed the wrong boss on your rifle. There are different sizes which are caliber specific.

 

[ksubuck]

It is the appropriate sized non-ported BOSS-CR, so no questions in my mind about alignment or wrong size. The rifle is pushing bullets down range so slowly that they are not stabilizing and accuracy is going to be poor.

The question in my mind is why, in this rifle, are different charges not producing predicted or expected velocities. If you take short barrel into consideration, that explains part of it. But experience says loss of 4 inches of barrel should only reduce speed by 100 to 150 fps, not 350 or more. I am using Federal 210M primers, so I don't expect a shortfall there. Faster burning powders, ie 4350 and 4831 should be slightly more useful in such a short barrel versus slower powders such as 1000, 7828, and retumbo. But when using 4350, 4831, and retumbo, they all fall short in the same manner.

So what generates the pressure that drives the bullet forward? Powder type and amount. Speed and completion of powder ignition. Chamber size. Brass hardness, thickness, and effective case capacity. Neck tension holding the bullet in the case. Jump to the lands. Resistance of the bullet once it reaches the lands, and as it drives down the barrel. Length of the barrel. Anything else?

I am to the point of suspecting that the bore is not as tight as it should be. Guess it is time to figure out how to airgauge it or rebarrel it. I don't feel right dumping the rifle on someone else. I wouldn't want someone to pick up their first deer rifle off of the used rack and get this headache. In the meantime, I will cautiously work up until I see pressure signs.

I have noticed in this discussion that there are two schools of thought. The first, never go over published book max. The other school is go up slowly until you see pressure signs. I have always stayed in the shallow end of the pool as I have learned to reload. This is the first time I have had to consider the deep end.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I am almost sure that you have the wrong sized BOSS device on your rifle. My Winchester .30-06 Model 70 BOSS gets 2860 fps with 165 Partitions handloads and IMR 4350. It is also deadly accurate and shoots 1/4 inch groups with the 165 Partition. If you have the CR device, I would try it but measure the bore first to assure that you have the correct device.

 

[ksubuck]

It is the same size, weight, inside and outside diameter as the one on my 270 which is different than my 7RM. It is the correct BOSS for the 25-06. Besides, I am worried about velocity shortfall. Accuracy will work itself out if I can start to approach 25-06 velocities with safe powder charges.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Then there may be a BOSS alignment issue? I have never owned a rifle with BOSS that slowed the bullet down? I have owned (2) Browning's and (2) Winchester's with BOSS and I still own the .30-06. I have never had a velocity issue with any of them? My grandson has my other Winchester .280 Rem and his is dead accurate.

 

[nvbroncrider]

Try shooting it with the BOSS off. It may further help you determine the problem. Might shoot great. It's worth a shot in the dark.