264 WM Or 270 WSM

[enfield fan]

To quote from the nosler bible a 264 win. 140 grn bullet with 57.5 grns of rl-19 leaves a 24 " tube at 3021 fps,and a 150 grn bullet wit 68 grns of mag pro leaves a 24 inch tube at 3187 fps,with both bullets with roughly the same ballistic coefficent and sectional density. Thus with a three hundred yard zero the 270 is -25.inches low as the 264 is around 27 inches low at 500 yards,plus even with the berger bullet that will only change by less than 2 inches if both left the barrel at 3100-3200 fps.And we all know that more often than not the hottest load possible in any given rifle is usually not the most accurate.Sorry but i like to debate so please feel free to bring it on,because if nothing else i will learn more about all of you and more about this sport i enjoy. :lol: 8)

 

[hardpan]

Well, I also have a .264 WM. And just about every load that I try shoots well. Most are about 1/2" at 100 yds, and that includes the 140 gr Partition (favorite), the 130 gr AB, and the 100 and 120 Gr BTs. Great gun, and hard for me to imagine an easier load.

I tend to shoot heavier bullets from larger rifles, but me .264 is a very sweet rifle indeed.
Hardpan

 

[30-338]

I've been shooting some Nolser 160gr Partition in my 270WSM seem like a pretty good bullet.

 

[SJB358]

What kind of speed are you getting out of the 160's. They seem like a heckuva bullet. Something I would look at if I was hunting in bear country with the 270WSM. Scotty

 

[30-338]

What kind of speed are you getting out of the 160's. They seem like a heckuva bullet. Something I would look at if I was hunting in bear country with the 270WSM. Scotty

Scotty, just started shooting them but I would guess 3000/3100fps.

 

[SJB358]

Any reason you are using the 160's over the 150's? I am getting about 3100+ out of the 150's so would think 3000 would probably be right on. That should be a great shooting load, the 160 has a good BC for a semi spitzer. I am looking forward to your results. Scotty

 

[30-338]

Any reason you are using the 160's over the 150's? I am getting about 3100+ out of the 150's so would think 3000 would probably be right on. That should be a great shooting load, the 160 has a good BC for a semi spitzer. I am looking forward to your results. Scotty

I'm pretty happy with 140gr/150gr in the 270WSM and just wanted to try something different.

 

[SJB358]

I know what you mean. Sometimes it is pretty fun to find new loads. I looked into the 160's but found 150's first, so they got the nod. After shooting them, they shoot so well, I really don't need to look any further. They are fast and accurate. Plus, I would put the 150gr Nosler PT up against elk, if I ever gave the 270WSM a chance again. Scotty

 

[nomosendero]

To quote from the nosler bible a 264 win. 140 grn bullet with 57.5 grns of rl-19 leaves a 24 " tube at 3021 fps,and a 150 grn bullet wit 68 grns of mag pro leaves a 24 inch tube at 3187 fps,with both bullets with roughly the same ballistic coefficent and sectional density. Thus with a three hundred yard zero the 270 is -25.inches low as the 264 is around 27 inches low at 500 yards,plus even with the berger bullet that will only change by less than 2 inches if both left the barrel at 3100-3200 fps.And we all know that more often than not the hottest load possible in any given rifle is usually not the most accurate.Sorry but i like to debate so please feel free to bring it on,because if nothing else i will learn more about all of you and more about this sport i enjoy. :lol: 8)

Yes, and different sources are all over the map in both directions. The 264WM has a larger powder capacity which would give a vel. edge, but the 270 has a larger bore, though slight which will bump vel alittle. 264 with a 26" tube or longer will have slightly higher vel. if both are loaded to max pressure with the 140, though not much diff, as stated before, not enough to jump up and down about. But without a doubt, the 6.5 has far superior long range bullets & that's the edge. If not we would see a 270-08 instead of a 260, a 270Lapua instead of a 6.5Lapua & a 270 Creedmore instead of a 6.5 Creedmore, but no chance of those taking over the competitive circuit. 6.5 bullets kick some butt.

 

[enfield fan]

Thank you for the info Mr. nomosendero, i will always look forward to this forum with those that are willing to share the opinons,knowledge,and interests that they have in the sport.

 

[SJB358]

To quote from the nosler bible a 264 win. 140 grn bullet with 57.5 grns of rl-19 leaves a 24 " tube at 3021 fps,and a 150 grn bullet wit 68 grns of mag pro leaves a 24 inch tube at 3187 fps,with both bullets with roughly the same ballistic coefficent and sectional density. Thus with a three hundred yard zero the 270 is -25.inches low as the 264 is around 27 inches low at 500 yards,plus even with the berger bullet that will only change by less than 2 inches if both left the barrel at 3100-3200 fps.And we all know that more often than not the hottest load possible in any given rifle is usually not the most accurate.Sorry but i like to debate so please feel free to bring it on,because if nothing else i will learn more about all of you and more about this sport i enjoy. :lol: 8)

Yes, and different sources are all over the map in both directions. The 264WM has a larger powder capacity which would give a vel. edge, but the 270 has a larger bore, though slight which will bump vel alittle. 264 with a 26" tube or longer will have slightly higher vel. if both are loaded to max pressure with the 140, though not much diff, as stated before, not enough to jump up and down about. But without a doubt, the 6.5 has far superior long range bullets & that's the edge. If not we would see a 270-08 instead of a 260, a 270Lapua instead of a 6.5Lapua & a 270 Creedmore instead of a 6.5 Creedmore, but no chance of those taking over the competitive circuit. 6.5 bullets kick some butt.

Just for a reference, after reading your post, got me to thinking, about the powder capacity difference between the two. I didn't have a 264 case, but I do have Winchester 7mm Rem Mag and 270WSM cases. Both cases were resized with an RCBS FL die, for the appropriate caliber, on my Forster COAX. I then filled each of them up to the neck and leveled it off. I used RL22, since that is a powder I use for each case pretty often. For the 270WSM I got 79.5gr of powder, for the 7mm Rem Mag I got 80.8gr's. Seems that is pretty darn close to me. I know it was scientific, but I would bet it would be pretty similar for others doing it with like cases. Just some more food for our thoughts. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Case capacity is measured using deoxygenated water. The flash hole of a resized case is plugged with wax, or the spent primer is left in the case and it is resized without decapping. The resized case is then weighed and tared on the scale before being filled with water that has sat overnight to permit excess oxygen to bleed off. The case is filled to the point of a meniscus and weighed. The SAAMI weight of a 264 WM is 82.0 grains of water. The SAAMI weight of a 270 WSM is 79.5 grains of water. This is roughly a 3% differential, which as Scotty implies, is inconsequential in the real world. For all practical purposes, either cartridge will get the job done.

 

[SJB358]

Man, that makes me feel pretty good Mike. I was actually pretty close to SAMMI specs, just using my field expedient method. I just wanted to see "about" what the difference was and it seems it is close enough for a comparison's sake. Again, I knew they were pretty close. Thanks for the good explanation Mike. Never knew that info. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Scotty,

Any material used to calculate case capacity has to be consistent, or reproducible. Since powders differ in density and cannot actually occupy al the space within a case, water was chosen. To ensure that the water was consistent, free oxygen is bled off and the water is maintained at a constant temperature for precise measurement.

Townsend Whelan is quoted as saying, "The only interesting rifle is an accurate rifle." While that is true, one dare not forget that accurate rifles are worthless without a consistent rifleman, and the rifleman's craft is enhanced by accurate ammunition. Accurate ammunition is created by consistency and attention to detail. You done good.

 

[SJB358]

Thanks buddy. I have achieved learning for the day. Now maybe I can go shoot some! Scotty

 

[nomosendero]

Case capacity is measured using deoxygenated water. The flash hole of a resized case is plugged with wax, or the spent primer is left in the case and it is resized without decapping. The resized case is then weighed and tared on the scale before being filled with water that has sat overnight to permit excess oxygen to bleed off. The case is filled to the point of a meniscus and weighed. The SAAMI weight of a 264 WM is 82.0 grains of water. The SAAMI weight of a 270 WSM is 79.5 grains of water. This is roughly a 3% differential, which as Scotty implies, is inconsequential in the real world. For all practical purposes, either cartridge will get the job done.

Well of course they will both get the job done. My point was that we could point out 1 source where the 270WSM is faster with a given weight, others where the 264 is faster, but the difference in vel is small & the 264 has a slight capacity edge.

Another overlooked factor is MANY short actions do not allow seating the bullets in such a way to utilize the case powder capacity. That can happen with a long action & long action round as well, but does not happen to the same degree because most long actions will accomidate the slightly longer 300WM. So, in reality the percentage of usuable powder capacity is likely to be greater than the % of usuable capacity for a short mag. So, this 3% edge for the 264 can become 6-8% or more diff. real quick. Of course, I am in reference to the longer bullets we would use for long range.

But, like I said before the edge for long range is the indisputable superiority of the 6.5 bullet over the present 270 picks, it will keep coming back to that fact.

BTW, I sure like my 270, but I have a 264 Number 1 on order.

 

[SJB358]

Just for reference, you would be hard pressed to run out of powder space in the 270WSM. My deer load is a 150gr BT which is pretty long and I am shooting 66gr of RL22 and still have more room for more if I wanted. Same with the 150gr PT. I am loading both of those to 2.860 and could load up 2.880 if I needed. Again, I think with the 150gr BT with a BC of .496 it is a flat shooter. I do really want a 264, but in hunting reality I can't see what it would do much better than the 270WSM. It does have good bullets, but there are some very high BC bullets for the .277. They are just a little harder to come by. Scotty

 

[30-338]

Just for reference, you would be hard pressed to run out of powder space in the 270WSM. My deer load is a 150gr BT which is pretty long and I am shooting 66gr of RL22 and still have more room for more if I wanted. Same with the 150gr PT. I am loading both of those to 2.860 and could load up 2.880 if I needed. Again, I think with the 150gr BT with a BC of .496 it is a flat shooter. I do really want a 264, but in hunting reality I can't see what it would do much better than the 270WSM. It does have good bullets, but there are some very high BC bullets for the .277. They are just a little harder to come by. Scotty

Scotty, the 264 mag case has been around 52 yrs and had plenty of chances to become a LR match round. LR range shooters use the 284 case same as they are using that case again for the 7mm 180gr bullet. The 284 has around 4gr less capacity than the 264mag case so more isn't all that important.

If you go back to the post on my dies you will see a set of 264 mag dies learned my lesson (I had one build) also see a set of 6.5x284 dies. As you know I'm having a 284 build going to have a 27" long barrel.

I don't regret building the 264mag was interesting I never hunted with it got too many other calibers. Last year I'd talk to Brux barrels about a 1/9 twist 270 barrel Berger was making their 150gr VLD hunting bullet also would of worked real good with Barnes 150gr TSX.

 

[reflex264]

I guess what bothers me about these debates is real world BC numbers vs. advertised BC numbers. I shoot deer on depradation permits in bean fields that are too long for any rifle to shoot end to end. I have tried several set ups. When I the smoke clears I will take a .264. Some of you have read my posts before about the nearly magic properties of a couple of bullets. By the computer it doesn't work but I can take you out any day of the week with one of my .264s and show you what happens. Using a Weaver V-TAC with the sight in at 100 yards hitting even with the 1st stadia high, the point of impact is dead on at 340 yards. Center of the reticle. The next stadia bellow center is dead on at 430 yards. What does this mean? If you set a life size deer target at 560 yards you can hold the 1st stadia on the deer's back and hit the lungs. No bullet I know of in any caliber will hit cardboard with the same sight in. This is taking in 7mags, 300 mags (WTHB and WIN) .270s including the short mag or anything else we have thrown at it. Nope I can't explain it but it happens. I have taken a 80lbs doe from a kneeling position at 620 lasered yards. My hold was 2 stdia lines down just over the back. Here is a link to a thread I started after the 130gr AB appeared to defy gravity. Whenever we get time we are going to take a well known gun writer out and demostrate this. He lives close enough for us to pull this off. HE has been working on a 6.5 Wildcat we can try while we are at it. reflex264


http://noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 11&start=0

 

[reflex264]

First shot from a cold barrel at 411 yards with the 130AB at 3139fps. This load is very mild in my gun. reflex264

Here is the Encore I use for my beanfield kills. It has a 26" 1:8 Douglas barrel, a VVG hanger system forend and the Weaver V-Tac which sadley is no longer made.