270 Win Load for Caribou

[JD338]

Army SGM Retired

You have yourself a good load with the 140 gr AB and it will get the job done for you with ease.

The differences in velocity from the book can be caused from a varitity of reasons such as brass, primers powder lots, the barrel's true bore diameter, chamber size, temp, altitude, barametric pressure, etc.

If you are within 100 fps, of book, its close enough. Having a consistant load with a low ES and SD will give you better accuracy. Speed sells and accuracy kills. :wink:

JD338

 

[Army SGM Retired]

Thanks JD for the explanation, I still can get within 200 fps of book and I’m using the brass, powder, bullet, but not the primer (yet). Do you know how to test a chronograph to see if it is calibrated? Going to call Chrono people soon to ask them too. If I can find someone with another chrono I think I could do the process of elimination. Again, Thanks to all that have helped me so far, I could have not gone as far as I have without the help. I have so many questions!! I will start setting up my 40cal pistol dies when I get back so get ready. I started but things were not go right so I stopped, to many hands in the fire. JD338, is it wrong to ask if there are “support groups” around Huntsville Alabama so I can get some first hand knowledge? I know there are woodworking groups that share “tricks of trade” hands on but have not seen anything like that for reloading. I don’t want to invade others privacy but hope I can find some sort of “users group” for reloading. Thanks Again..

 

[JD338]

We are your on line support group. There are several here is many years of experience that are a mouse click away.

If your chrony has fold out sky screens, make sure they are in the correct position. Also make sure you have it set up at least ten feet away so you do not get false readings.

Give RL 22 a try.

JD338

 

[SJB358]

I think you are doing fine. For your first set of loads to come out that well, you are doing procedures correctly and being consistent. I wouldn't get wrapped too much about speeds. Alot of folks don't have a chrono and just go off book speeds and are perfectly happy not knowing how fast there loads are actually going. Plus, I am sure they take tons of animals every year with their loads. Accuracy is the key and with some other powders, I think you will get to where you want to be. RL22/H1000 would be my next powders to try.

Jim is right about us being a click away, there is always someone will to assist another with load work. That is the fun part about this site I think. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Alot of folks don't have a chrono and just go off book speeds and are perfectly happy not knowing how fast there loads are actually going.

A chronograph has ruined more than one great rifle! :lol:

 

[Army SGM Retired]

OK, I see the light. The only reason I was concerned about speed is being able to know bullet drop at yardage beyond 100 yards. The Nosler book has excellent data using velocity and zero which I’m sure you all know. I have one area that I can get a 250 yard shot so I will go with that and sight in 2-3 inches high from there. Thanks again to all.

 

[DrMike]

And best of luck on your hunt. I believe you have the rifle and the load that will do the job for you.

 

[OldMan]

Thanks Doc, not sure of those eyes your are talking about but will call the chronoy people and ask if there could be an issue.

OldMan, I have not heard of IMR-7828ssc powder, what book did that come from? Question being where/what is the limit for mix and matching of powder/bullet/ and brass? Why haven’t the powder makers fired all possible options with their bullets? Being new to this I have a lot of questions that probably can’t be answered by us but maybe someone has the answer.

This load came from a Speer Manual, I think #10. 7828 is slower than RL-22 or H4831 so 60 grains should not be out of reason, but every gun is different as are different lots of powder. By the way I have on hand all the powders everyone else has mentioned and tried all of them before I settled on 7828! H-4831 sc was my first great hope, but didn't shoot that great in mine. I have 12 pounds of RL-22, so I wanted it to be the one also, but it grouped only fair.

As for the books using only the best loads, Nosler lists 7828 as the best for my 300 Wby. This powder works great with 168 TSX in mine, but RL-25 is what took the honors in both speed and accuracy with 180 AB's. My other 300 Wby liked only RL-22 best so you will only know for sure when you try! Like I said earlier, always work up from below and never take someone elses load for granted.

 

[Army SGM Retired]

Thanks for the info OldMan. You have got me thinking on the different loads that one can try. So can I use other load books with other bullet manufactures using same bullet weight and start with bottom powder grain and work up? I have other books but thought that using Nosler bullets I should only use Nosler Book. Can I go “out of bounds” using this type of thought? If I use my chrono I would think I could and just keep below 3000 fps. What do you think???

 

[DrMike]

SGM,

You can use other loads with caution. Since the bullets have differing bearing surfaces, there may be pressure issues. However, drop back ten percent and work up incrementally to ensure that you have a safe load. Velocity is related to pressure, but the relationship is not such that you can depend on velocity. The pressure curve can spike dramatically with some powder/bullet combinations.

 

[Army SGM Retired]

Thanks Doc, I will keep that in mind. So, what is that magic velocity that I should stop at when using other loads? If other load of 140 grain bullet takes it up to 2900 fps would that not be OK?? You say start low and adjust up, what it max up till th case starts to crack then I know I at the threshhold? I've see the 65,000 psi so do I use that as a "DO NOT GO THERE" limit with other recipe loads? Help.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Retired Army.
Here are a few things that will help you understand the art of the chronograph.
Trust your chronograph, not the book. There is a reason we call the chronograph the "de-liar".

If it's 100 degrees out, your velocitiy will be 100 fps faster the at 70 degrees.
At 30 degrees, you will clock 100 fps slower the at 70 degrees.

4" of barrel will change your velocity between 100 and 200 fps, depending on the cartrige and powder.

Changing primers will change you velocity anywhere from 0 to 150 fps.
Changing brass, again, 0 to 100.

In one rifle, as the throat became worn, I would watch the velocity it generated drop over time.

This is just a long winded way of saying the book is just a guideline, and the results of some technition in a temperature controlled tunnel, with new brass, and SAAMI min spec chambered (read tight chambered) and an over length pressure barrel may have very little to do with your mil surplus or production gun.

Now once you've figured out what YOUR gun will do under YOUR hunting conditions, plug your variables in HERE:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
and make your own drop tables. I make mine out to 1000 yards, and in 25 yard increment, but as you can tell, I might be just a little bit obsessive about this stuff. :grin:

 

[DrMike]

The problem is that there is no "magic velocity." You must watch for pressure signs, which almost always appear after you are beyond safe pressure limits. That is the reason I advise working up slowly, starting from a safe minimum charge and watching for signs of pressure. We don't often work with pressure transducers or units that measure crushed pellets of lead or copper, so we are restricted to taking prudent precautions to avoid excessive pressure. If you see a load listed in another manual that uses a different bullet, and perhaps a different primer and/or case than you have been using. You may choose to examine that load. However, you are responsible to know the signs of excessive pressure and back off when they appear. Moreover, you must be wary not to jump into the realm of excessive pressure by choosing a heavier charge at the outset, lest you stumble into the hot zone. Read some of the manuals/guides concerning pressure signs and thoroughly familiarise yourself with these as they can save you a great deal of sorrow (soot around the primer pocket, bright ring at the web, primers backed out of the pocket, sticky bolt lift, etc.).

 

[Army SGM Retired]

Wow, now my head is really hurting. I thought over 28 years of Army life was rough but this stuff has got me fired up. Thanks Sniper for the layout of the in’s and out’s of velocity. I thought that one would need to know the velocity to be able to understand the bullet drop for sub long shots. Not sure how people reload and shoot without a chronograph and do it safely. There comes trusting the book and just stay with it and hopefully going out and shooting long range to see the bullet drop is not what the book states so back to the drawing board.

Doc, Is your degree in Theology with a minor in Space, Nuclear, Electrical, and a little bit of Chemical, Physics to boot. And did I say some counseling in there also. Thanks so much for looking out for me on pressure. I don’t want to be bit like my wife did by a Copperhead snake 3 years ago. I have read and looked at pictures in Lymans reload book but they are only so good. I check each round after I shot at the range for those pressure signs and will cease fire upon any malady. I’m going to take pics and post here when I think I have an issue. Again thanks, and I can’t even think about counting down for my hunt to many things to do.

 

[DrMike]

Don't focus on the obscure. Learn to walk before you run. The signs will be obvious if you look. If they are not present, it is not an obvious concern. If you have reason for concern, examine carefully and drop back by one grain to a safe charge. At the velocities you are generating, you have more than adequate energy to kill caribou (or deer and even elk and moose). Stay focused on accuracy. The doctorate is in medical biochemistry. There are men on this forum with far more knowledge then I have or perhaps ever shall have; I am learning constantly as I read their submissions. Never forget that you are the one pulling the trigger and you must make the final call on the safety of your load. None of us want to read of a catastrophic case failure from any of those sharing the board.

 

[Army SGM Retired]

DrMike, thanks again for the word of wisdom. I live for Marksmanship, having shot competition for Army on both pistol and Rifle on post level teams and I love to shot. The only difference is Army supplied the ammo so this is a new world. Thanks again for the info.

 

[Army SGM Retired]

Here are the results from Yesterdays range. As you can see the highest velocity is 2830, seems like my rifle can’t touch the 3000 or 2900 speed. The S/T by 3 groups means that there were 2 rounds touching in the 3 round shot group and that it could have been me that pushed the round out? All cases are Winchester except Log #30 which was Remington. So, looking at this what do you think is going on with velocity and my A Bolt? Thanks, Gary


Log#Powder Pow Wt Prim OAL Avg Vel Deviation Shot Grp
25 H4831sc 58.0 Rem 3.28 2773 11 .80 S/T
26 H4831sc 58.5 Rem 3.28 2795 20 2.17
27 H4831sc 59.0 Rem 3.28 2826 16 1.47
28 H4831sc 57.5 CCI 3.28 2742 9 .83
29 H4831sc 58.5 CCI 3.28 2793 6 1.86
30 H4831sc 57.0 Rem 3.30 2752 11 1.62
31 RL22 55.5 CCI 3.26 2717 12 1.89
32 RL22 56.5 CCI 3.26 2773 2 1.55 S/T
33 RL22 57.5 Rem 3.26 2830 21 1.44
34 H1000 59.0 CCI 3.28 2597 16 1.73 S/T
35 H1000 60.0 CCI 3.34 2655 23 1.15

 

[SJB358]

Your in good shape buddy, I see two good loads over 2800, and your H1000 load work looks good also. I sent you a PM, but I think you are there. I would tune your BOSS and then push out to 200 yards. You are likely to shoot as well at 200 as 100 once you get tuned up. Scotty

 

[Army SGM Retired]

OK, I’m finally back from the land of many Caribou and north of Alabama which is called Canada. Scotty, thought I would post the final hunt report here at this post so it could help others in obtaining a load for their 270. I will leave the pictures of the hunt on the other post titled “270 Load for Browning A-Bolt” or maybe post at Hunting 2010 pictures. As for the final load that I came up with was Nosler AB in 140 grain, Case Winchester fired twice, Federal 210 Primer, IMR 4831 at 55.8 gr., O.A.L. 3.342, and it was pushing 2880 fps with a deviation of 5 in 3 shots. It had a grouping of .53 inches (the best that I could get). This load was the best that gave me the smallest group size with so so speed. I wanted to reach the 3000 fps to obtain a flat shooting round but after listening to DrMike and Scotty I saw the light and went with my best grouping. When I went back to check my log it showed that I had fired 153 shots of all types of loads!!! The hunt only took 3 hours but it seemed like all day when they started coming up the hill side. The kill shots were only 30 and 40 yards away and the AccuBonds hit hard on one of the bulls, only went 10 yards. The other Bull ( the bigger one with 49 inch spread) took a hit in the front quarter and did a 360 but kept walking off with a heavy limp. I could not get another shot off due to the rest of the herd was going crazy. The bigger bull traveled 200 yards before dropping. Shot hit lungs and it took longer for him to drop. Both shots were pass through so no bullets recovered. My son also harvested an old bull with his 30-06 which dropped in its tracks. With Hurricane Earl quickly approaching we did not have much time to take many pictures, after quartering the Caribou and loading off the mountain we still had to leave one animal on the mountain for the next day retrieval. I was worried hoping that Bears would not take it and make a meal. The Bears did return that night but only hit the carcasses for heart and liver. The guides went back up the next morning to bring the last bull back; the only thing was the rain was coming down hard. It rained for two days and weather kept hunters from changing out due to low ceiling and planes could not fly. As for the country, 70 miles west of Schefferville, Quebec it was wonderful. Again, this was a hunt of a lifetime and if I can come up with the $$’s again I’ll be on the first plan north. Hope this helps someone else out there that is planning on a Caribou hunt to Quebec. Thanks Dr Mike and Scotty for the help on this forum and Scotty you can send me a PM with the address for the steak I said I was going to send you. Thanks to all that gave me input, there are just to many to mention.

 

[JD338]

Glad we could elp you out. Congratulations on your successful hunt. Post some ppictures of your bulls. You can now upload pictures on the new forum with the "Upload Attachment" tab at the bottom of the screen. :wink:

JD338