280 ackley vs. 7mm remington
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SakoSteve270wsm
Handloader
- Apr 17, 2007
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Nosler's reloading guide #6 shows data for the 280AI with a 26" barrel and the 7mmRM with a 24" barrel.They list a max velocity with each around 3050 with 160gr bullets.That 280AI is a hotrod.
- Nov 4, 2004
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laker
I have a 280AI with a 24" Hart barrel and get 3225 fps with the 140 gr AB and 3019 fps with the 160 gr AB.
It is 7mm RM performance.
JD338
I have a 280AI with a 24" Hart barrel and get 3225 fps with the 140 gr AB and 3019 fps with the 160 gr AB.
It is 7mm RM performance.
JD338
Powerstroke
Handloader
- Feb 24, 2006
- 1,792
- 33
I can't wait to chrony my .280 to see how anemic it is against the .280AI
Greg Nolan
Handloader
- Nov 25, 2004
- 2,143
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JD338
No wonder you like that 280AI so much. Just a question about bullet weights though. Which weight do you prefer or is strictly by what you're hunting? I need to try and work up some non-lead loads for at least a few calibers. Has anyone tried the E-tips yet for accuracy?
Thanks
Greg
Elkhunt :grin:
No wonder you like that 280AI so much. Just a question about bullet weights though. Which weight do you prefer or is strictly by what you're hunting? I need to try and work up some non-lead loads for at least a few calibers. Has anyone tried the E-tips yet for accuracy?
Thanks
Greg
Elkhunt :grin:
- Nov 4, 2004
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Greg,
I have setteled on the 160 gr AB for everything becaues of excellent velocity, accuracy, and retained energy down range. There is plenty of terminal performance on WT deer so it just makes good sense to use a single bullet/load for everything.
JD338
I have setteled on the 160 gr AB for everything becaues of excellent velocity, accuracy, and retained energy down range. There is plenty of terminal performance on WT deer so it just makes good sense to use a single bullet/load for everything.
JD338
I to shoot a 280 and I'm strongly considering rebarreling to the 280AI. My question is this. Notwithstanding the larger case capacity of the 280AI, is the 280AI loaded to them same pressure levels or higher than the 280?? or put another way, if we were to load the 280 to higher pressure levels (say 60000/61000 psi) would be see a resultant increase in standard 280 performance that would be very close to 280AI performance (say within 50 to 100 fps) of the larger cartridge??
For the record I keep my loads within published load parameters.
Marshal
For the record I keep my loads within published load parameters.
Marshal
- Nov 4, 2004
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Marshal
The 280AI is a very effecient case size and has more capacity than a 280 Rem.
When loaded to max levels, it gives up very little to the 7mm RM.
JD338
The 280AI is a very effecient case size and has more capacity than a 280 Rem.
When loaded to max levels, it gives up very little to the 7mm RM.
JD338
- Nov 4, 2004
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LowBC,
Only the Nosler Custom Series II that I am aware of for an off the shelf 280AI. Maybe that will change now that Nosler has made the 280AI a legitimate offering. Only other options are to have a 280 Remington rechambered or a custom barrel chambered to 280 AI.
JD338
Only the Nosler Custom Series II that I am aware of for an off the shelf 280AI. Maybe that will change now that Nosler has made the 280AI a legitimate offering. Only other options are to have a 280 Remington rechambered or a custom barrel chambered to 280 AI.
JD338
There is only one way to get 7mm Mag velocities from a 280AI, and that is to shoot it in a longer barrel or load it to higher pressures. Some of the suggested loads I have seen for the 280AI are downright HOT!! Be careful, the 280AI is a great chambering, but it is not quite capable of 7mm Mag Velocities, all other factors being equal. Regards, Eagleye.
GRT338; I do have some real-world basis for my information. Just for the record, my reloading experience goes back to 1965. I have owned 4 - 280AI rifles and at least 6 - 7mm Rem Mags over the years (also a couple of standard 280's) I have chronographed many, many loads using Oehler, Pact and Shooting Chrony Master. I also have checked pressures with a Transducer system for comparison purposes.
If pressures are equal, the 280AI will average 100-150+ FPS less than the 7mm Mag across the board. If one insists on stoking his 280AI up into the 70,000+ area, then he can equal 7mm Mag velocities, but I, for one, will not go there. Here are some figures for you from two practically identical rifles. Both M700 Remingtons, wearing Pac-Nor 1-9 twist barrels, 24" long (5 lands and grooves) At the time of these tests, the 280AI had about 65 rounds through it and the 7mm Mag about 80. 140 Grain Nosler Partition: 280AI: WW brass, WLR Primer, 64 grains of RL22, 3205 FPS average, pressure 66,240 PSI avg
7MM Rem Mag: WW brass WLRM primer, 69 grains of RL 22 (same lot#), 3385 FPS, pressure 65,820 PSI avg.
160 grain Nosler Partition: 280AI: WW brass WLRM Primer, 61 grains of IMR 7828, 2990 FPS avg, pressure 65,200 PSI avg.
7mm Rem Mag: WW brass, WLRM primer, 66.5 grains of IMR 7828, 3125 FPS avg, 65,320 PSI avg.
I have more examples in my book, but this is typically what one sees. I had a Shilen barrelled 280AI, 26" long which averaged about 40 FPS faster with all bullet weights than did the Pac-nor 24" at similar pressures. Ocasionally, one may see a barrel that is a bit faster, or one that is a bit slower, but the difference is not a lot, even then. I did a lot of work with the 7mm STW also, and found some interesting things about that big 7.
The bottom line is, one cannot override the laws of physics. Case capacity will determine the velocity of a chambering when all other factors are on a level playing field. One thing is true, though. The gains experienced become less and less for the added powder as the case gets larger. Regards, Eagleye
If pressures are equal, the 280AI will average 100-150+ FPS less than the 7mm Mag across the board. If one insists on stoking his 280AI up into the 70,000+ area, then he can equal 7mm Mag velocities, but I, for one, will not go there. Here are some figures for you from two practically identical rifles. Both M700 Remingtons, wearing Pac-Nor 1-9 twist barrels, 24" long (5 lands and grooves) At the time of these tests, the 280AI had about 65 rounds through it and the 7mm Mag about 80. 140 Grain Nosler Partition: 280AI: WW brass, WLR Primer, 64 grains of RL22, 3205 FPS average, pressure 66,240 PSI avg
7MM Rem Mag: WW brass WLRM primer, 69 grains of RL 22 (same lot#), 3385 FPS, pressure 65,820 PSI avg.
160 grain Nosler Partition: 280AI: WW brass WLRM Primer, 61 grains of IMR 7828, 2990 FPS avg, pressure 65,200 PSI avg.
7mm Rem Mag: WW brass, WLRM primer, 66.5 grains of IMR 7828, 3125 FPS avg, 65,320 PSI avg.
I have more examples in my book, but this is typically what one sees. I had a Shilen barrelled 280AI, 26" long which averaged about 40 FPS faster with all bullet weights than did the Pac-nor 24" at similar pressures. Ocasionally, one may see a barrel that is a bit faster, or one that is a bit slower, but the difference is not a lot, even then. I did a lot of work with the 7mm STW also, and found some interesting things about that big 7.
The bottom line is, one cannot override the laws of physics. Case capacity will determine the velocity of a chambering when all other factors are on a level playing field. One thing is true, though. The gains experienced become less and less for the added powder as the case gets larger. Regards, Eagleye
Listen to Eagle Eye.
The so called improved cartridges based on the 06 case show only a tiny increase in case capacity. Therefore the velocities will be about the same, maybe 60 fps more in my experiance.
At this point the 280AI has not been accepted by SAAMI so its not certain what its dimensions and tolerances are.
The 7mm RM and 7mm WSM will outperform a 280AI and a 280 Remington. Not to say that a true Winchester type Featherweight barrel profile would not make a very nice 280 Remington with say a 22" tube. There is no way that I would want a 280 anything with a 26" barrel or even a 24" barrel for that matter unless it was for some stationary use.
Someone above mentioned rebarreling to get a 280AI from a 280 Remington. For most barrel shapes you would not have to rebarrel but instead have the barrel set back to minus .004" headspace.
By the way when I started handloading in 1953 I got advice in person from Lysle Kilbourn the inventor improved cartridges.
The so called improved cartridges based on the 06 case show only a tiny increase in case capacity. Therefore the velocities will be about the same, maybe 60 fps more in my experiance.
At this point the 280AI has not been accepted by SAAMI so its not certain what its dimensions and tolerances are.
The 7mm RM and 7mm WSM will outperform a 280AI and a 280 Remington. Not to say that a true Winchester type Featherweight barrel profile would not make a very nice 280 Remington with say a 22" tube. There is no way that I would want a 280 anything with a 26" barrel or even a 24" barrel for that matter unless it was for some stationary use.
Someone above mentioned rebarreling to get a 280AI from a 280 Remington. For most barrel shapes you would not have to rebarrel but instead have the barrel set back to minus .004" headspace.
By the way when I started handloading in 1953 I got advice in person from Lysle Kilbourn the inventor improved cartridges.
- Nov 4, 2004
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Keep in mind that there are several variables to consider-
brass
bullet
primer
powder variences
COL
chamber dimenions
temperature
humidity
altitude
I agree that physics won't allow the 280 AI and 7mmRM cases to produce identical velocities at identical pressures but you can get the 280 AI close to the 7mm RM.
JD338
brass
bullet
primer
powder variences
COL
chamber dimenions
temperature
humidity
altitude
I agree that physics won't allow the 280 AI and 7mmRM cases to produce identical velocities at identical pressures but you can get the 280 AI close to the 7mm RM.
JD338
When one is loading for a Wildcat or an Improved case, it is always tempting to "push the envelope" a little. I have a 30 Gibbs that I have owned a long time. Before I got pressure testing equipment, I was loadin my Gibbs to very close to 300 Win Mag ballistics. I reasoned that since I had no distinct overpressure signs, I must be OK. Once I got my transducer and checked pressures, I soon adjusted my loads. The Gibbs now shows about 2940 at safe pressures, close to the big 30 but still 150 FPS shy at equal pressures. As JD 338 said, the 280 AI comes fairly close to 7mm Mag ballistics, but will not equal it at sane pressures. Regards, Eagleye.
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 297
Gotta point something out here...
Eagleye said he wouldn't push the Ackley past its limit...then he turned around and did it with the 7mm Rem Mag...in the data he posted, it's loaded to 65,000 psi.... SAAMI limits the 7mm RM to 61,000 psi....that 4,000 psi evens out the difference some.
The 280 Ackley is SAAMI spec'd at 65,000 psi...
Thats why people can get VERY NEAR to 7mm RM performance from the Ackley...within 50 fps isn't unreasonable, nor is it dangerous...if approached carefully.
Load both to their SAAMI limit...and there is very little difference between them.
280 Ackley is essentially just a long 7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Mag....the case capacities are nearly identical, with the Ackley having 1-2 grains more capacity.
Not intending to start a disagreement...just pointing out a discrepancy.
Lots of people, including myself, looking for data and info on the Ackley these days...in the spirit of safe and accurate info, I thought I'd point it out.
Everyone wants to compare these rounds at equal pressure....but doing that, you handicap the Ackley.
Edited to add: The Ackley will equal the 7mm WSM, and in some cases, beat it....according to SAAMI, the Ackley will shoot 140 grain bullets a little faster than the WSM.
Case capacity isn't the only thing to consider here...you also have to consider how well a particular powder "fits" that case capacity....there are a great many rounds out there that have capacity to spare...but no currently available powder can make efficient use of that capacity.
Eagleye said he wouldn't push the Ackley past its limit...then he turned around and did it with the 7mm Rem Mag...in the data he posted, it's loaded to 65,000 psi.... SAAMI limits the 7mm RM to 61,000 psi....that 4,000 psi evens out the difference some.
The 280 Ackley is SAAMI spec'd at 65,000 psi...
Thats why people can get VERY NEAR to 7mm RM performance from the Ackley...within 50 fps isn't unreasonable, nor is it dangerous...if approached carefully.
Load both to their SAAMI limit...and there is very little difference between them.
280 Ackley is essentially just a long 7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Mag....the case capacities are nearly identical, with the Ackley having 1-2 grains more capacity.
Not intending to start a disagreement...just pointing out a discrepancy.
Lots of people, including myself, looking for data and info on the Ackley these days...in the spirit of safe and accurate info, I thought I'd point it out.
Everyone wants to compare these rounds at equal pressure....but doing that, you handicap the Ackley.
Edited to add: The Ackley will equal the 7mm WSM, and in some cases, beat it....according to SAAMI, the Ackley will shoot 140 grain bullets a little faster than the WSM.
Case capacity isn't the only thing to consider here...you also have to consider how well a particular powder "fits" that case capacity....there are a great many rounds out there that have capacity to spare...but no currently available powder can make efficient use of that capacity.
The joy of having multiple calibers....if you want more from a caliber, get a gun with a larger caliber.
I have "regular" 280 and I enjoy it. If I feel I need more, then I pull out a 300 WSM or 35 Whelen.
Would I like a Nosler Patriot in 280 AI, I certainly think so, but know the limit of the cartridge and enjoy it to that limit.
Eric
I have "regular" 280 and I enjoy it. If I feel I need more, then I pull out a 300 WSM or 35 Whelen.
Would I like a Nosler Patriot in 280 AI, I certainly think so, but know the limit of the cartridge and enjoy it to that limit.
Eric
Ridgerunner665":162dshge said:
While I agree with what your saying, SAAMI specs are what they are. Loading to book max's is always the smart way to roll, I will say that case capacity does matter, as does how well the rifle is set up for that specific cartridge.
There is no replacement for case size. I like the 280 Ackley a bunch, but again, if you load a plain old 280 Rem to the same PSI's the gains will pretty much fall into line with the case size. I see it all over the internet where someone has a 280 Remington, and get 2800 with such and such bullet, then rechambers, and runs the same bullet 200FPS faster using the same 280 Remington brass and exclaims how much faster the Ackley is while pushing it to higher PSI's. See it all the time with the 243 vs 243AI.
Not arguing a bit, but with the the PSI's are what they are. Same thing when a guy uses 7mm Rem Mag brass for 257 Wby and then loads to WBY specs. It's the same brass, and holds up well. I think the bottom line is each rifle and cartridge is an experiment unto itself.
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 297
I agree...I didn't mean case capacity doesn't matter...just that whether or not there is a powder that works really well in that case capacity also matters.
I'm not trying or expecting anything earth shattering from the Ackley....I sure don't want to blow up a nearly $4,000 rifle, lol...I'm only looking to run it to its potential, and no farther...that is around 3,200 with 140's, 3,100 with 150's, and 3,000 with 160's...hopefully find some accuracy somewhere around those numbers.
I also agree about the 280 Rem vs AI...I know the Rem can do almost as much...but I want that little bit more, no matter how little it is, lol....sort of a 308 vs 30-06 type thing...sometimes that little bit matters, usually it doesn't...but its nice to know its there...matter of fact, that knowing its there may be the biggest thing about it...that warm and fuzzy feeling, lol.
And that bit about the Ackley being able to equal the WSM with 140's came from here... http://www.saami.org/specifications_and ... re_CfR.pdf
I'm not trying or expecting anything earth shattering from the Ackley....I sure don't want to blow up a nearly $4,000 rifle, lol...I'm only looking to run it to its potential, and no farther...that is around 3,200 with 140's, 3,100 with 150's, and 3,000 with 160's...hopefully find some accuracy somewhere around those numbers.
I also agree about the 280 Rem vs AI...I know the Rem can do almost as much...but I want that little bit more, no matter how little it is, lol....sort of a 308 vs 30-06 type thing...sometimes that little bit matters, usually it doesn't...but its nice to know its there...matter of fact, that knowing its there may be the biggest thing about it...that warm and fuzzy feeling, lol.
And that bit about the Ackley being able to equal the WSM with 140's came from here... http://www.saami.org/specifications_and ... re_CfR.pdf
