30-06 AI and 30-280 AI

[gerry]

Just thinking about a few things here in the dead of winter and was wondering about a few things.

How much real difference would there be between the standard 30-06, the 30-06 AI and 30-280 AI? I know that Nosler's data shows the 30-06 AI having a fair bit more speed but I think a large part of that comes from the 30-06 being loaded to a lower pressure. With an even playing field of 65,000 psi I wonder what the difference would be?

 

[truck driver]

Not apples and apples as for caliber but compare your 35 Whelen to my 35/AI.
200gr ABs at over 2900fps close to 3000fps and a 225gr pt at 2750 to over 2800fps in a 24" barrel. All my AI loads are QL set 62kpsi even though I could go 65k I don't and most of my accurate loads are 60kpsi so I'm pushing over max 35 Whelen loads in the 35/AI with no signs of extreme pressure and that's the beauty of an AI chamber IMO.
Increased powder charge with less pressure will help in case life plus no trimming after initial fire forming and you can still use regular 30-06 loaded rounds in an emergency.
Loaded right you might be able to get low 300Win velocities in equal barrel lengths but I'm no expert on this so take it with a grain of salt. Get some one to run you a QL on both and see what they come up with.

 

[DrMike]

30-06 AI
165 grain AB
RL19

Cartridge          : .30-06 Ack Imp
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler Accubond 55602
Useable Case Capaci: 61.620 grain H2O = 4.001 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.332 inch = 84.63 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-19

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   87    49.36   2323    1976   29364   7712     83.6    1.515
-18.0   89    50.59   2383    2080   31367   7993     85.1    1.473
-16.0   91    51.83   2444    2188   33510   8269     86.5    1.433
-14.0   93    53.06   2505    2299   35809   8539     87.9    1.394
-12.0   96    54.30   2566    2413   38274   8803     89.2    1.354
-10.0   98    55.53   2628    2531   40922   9058     90.5    1.312
-08.0  100    56.76   2691    2652   43767   9305     91.6    1.272
-06.0  102    58.00   2753    2777   46829   9543     92.8    1.232
-04.0  104    59.23   2816    2905   50127   9768     93.8    1.195  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  106    60.47   2879    3037   53682   9982     94.8    1.158  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  109    61.70   2942    3172   57523  10183     95.7    1.123  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  111    62.93   3006    3310   61676  10369     96.5    1.089  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  113    64.17   3069    3451   66180  10540     97.3    1.055  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  115    65.40   3133    3596   71066  10694     97.9    1.023  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  117    66.64   3197    3744   76380  10830     98.5    0.992  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  119    67.87   3260    3895   82172  10947     99.0    0.962  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    109    61.70   3099    3519   69367  10229     99.5    1.039  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    109    61.70   2741    2752   47041   9623     88.0    1.230

30-06
165 AB
RL19

Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler Accubond 55602
Useable Case Capaci: 59.804 grain H2O = 3.883 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-19

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   88    48.48   2306    1949   29780   7504     83.8    1.514
-18.0   90    49.69   2366    2052   31836   7775     85.3    1.472
-16.0   92    50.90   2427    2158   34042   8040     86.7    1.432
-14.0   95    52.12   2488    2267   36409   8300     88.1    1.393
-12.0   97    53.33   2549    2380   38954   8552     89.4    1.351
-10.0   99    54.54   2611    2497   41690   8797     90.7    1.308
-08.0  101    55.75   2672    2617   44634   9032     91.9    1.268
-06.0  103    56.96   2735    2740   47808   9257     93.0    1.228
-04.0  106    58.18   2797    2866   51232   9471     94.1    1.191  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  108    59.39   2860    2996   54930   9672     95.0    1.154  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  110    60.60   2922    3129   58934   9859     95.9    1.118  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  112    61.81   2985    3265   63273  10032     96.8    1.084  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  114    63.02   3049    3405   67985  10189     97.5    1.051  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  117    64.24   3112    3548   73112  10329     98.1    1.019  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  119    65.45   3175    3693   78702  10451     98.7    0.988  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  121    66.66   3238    3842   84811  10554     99.1    0.957  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    110    60.60   3077    3468   71098   9878     99.6    1.035  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    110    60.60   2724    2718   48177   9339     88.3    1.225

30-06 @ 64K psi

Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler Accubond 55602
Useable Case Capaci: 59.804 grain H2O = 3.883 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-19

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   90    49.44   2354    2030   31396   7719     85.0    1.481
-18.0   92    50.68   2415    2138   33615   7991     86.4    1.439
-16.0   94    51.91   2477    2249   36000   8257     87.9    1.399
-14.0   96    53.15   2540    2363   38565   8515     89.2    1.357
-12.0   99    54.38   2603    2482   41326   8766     90.5    1.314
-10.0  101    55.62   2666    2603   44304   9007     91.8    1.272
-08.0  103    56.86   2729    2729   47515   9237     92.9    1.232
-06.0  105    58.09   2793    2857   50986   9456     94.0    1.193
-04.0  108    59.33   2857    2990   54741   9662     95.0    1.156  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  110    60.56   2921    3125   58811   9854     95.9    1.119  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  112    61.80   2985    3264   63229  10030     96.7    1.085  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  114    63.04   3049    3406   68034  10191     97.5    1.051  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  117    64.27   3114    3552   73272  10333     98.1    1.018  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  119    65.51   3178    3701   78992  10457     98.7    0.986  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  121    66.74   3243    3853   85255  10560     99.2    0.955  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  123    67.98   3307    4008   92134  10642     99.5    0.925  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    112    61.80   3136    3603   76328   9968     99.8    1.005  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    112    61.80   2787    2845   51608   9574     89.6    1.187

30-06 AI @ 64K psi

Cartridge          : .30-06 Ack Imp
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler Accubond 55602
Useable Case Capaci: 61.611 grain H2O = 4.000 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.332 inch = 84.63 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-19

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   89    50.64   2385    2085   31452   8003     85.1    1.472
-18.0   91    51.91   2448    2195   33660   8286     86.6    1.431
-16.0   94    53.17   2511    2309   36031   8563     88.0    1.391
-14.0   96    54.44   2574    2427   38579   8832     89.3    1.349
-12.0   98    55.70   2637    2548   41322   9094     90.6    1.306
-10.0  100    56.97   2701    2673   44276   9346     91.8    1.265
-08.0  103    58.24   2765    2802   47460   9587     93.0    1.225
-06.0  105    59.50   2830    2934   50897   9816     94.1    1.186
-04.0  107    60.77   2895    3070   54613  10032     95.0    1.149  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  109    62.03   2960    3209   58635  10234     96.0    1.113  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  111    63.30   3025    3352   62998  10421     96.8    1.079  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  114    64.57   3090    3498   67736  10591     97.5    1.045  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  116    65.83   3155    3648   72894  10743     98.2    1.012  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  118    67.10   3221    3801   78521  10875     98.7    0.981  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  120    68.36   3286    3957   84674  10988     99.2    0.950  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  123    69.63   3352    4116   91420  11078     99.5    0.921  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    111    63.30   3178    3700   76023  10358     99.8    0.999  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    111    63.30   2824    2922   51416   9946     89.6    1.180

Hope that helps!

 

[gerry]

Thanks Looks like not very much of a gain which I suspected.

 

[truck driver]

About 50fps but look at the pressure levels where they achieve the velocity. The AI is considerable lower.

 

[gerry]

Seeing that Hunter is finally available here in Canada that makes things much more interesting when it comes to the 30-06. It seems to be a bit of a wonder powder in the 30-06 just as RL 26 is supposed to be in the 270 Win.

 

[DrMike]

Thanks Looks like not very much of a gain which I suspected.

I seem to recall that of the cartridges that were "improved," the 30-06 was one of the least improved in velocity. Efficiency was not really noticeable.

 

[SJB358]

While it sounds cool I'm with Mike. I can't see enough gain there to make it worth the hassle. I see the same thing from the 280 Rem and Ackley. There isn't a lot of gains but what is there is extra pressure. The Ackleys hide it really well with the straight case walls.

Again, not knocking them but unless there is a lot of taper the actual gains seem to come from extra pressure.

 

[JD338]

Gerry,

You might get an additional boost in speed from the 30-280AI since you will have more case capacity.
Going to the JRS case design would be even a bit more.

Just get a 30 Nosler.

JD338

 

[gerry]

Jim, over $4.00 per case before tax and shipping for the 30 Nosler here is tough to swallow I realise I'm not the market Nosler is probably trying to fill with their guns and ammo but I do wish the prices would come down. Our low Canadian dollar doesn't help things either.

 

[Polaris]

Not to pee on anybody's campfire... I'm a fan of odd ducks myself... but if you can't do it with a 30-06, why not one of the fine .30 magnums that have been around for a long time now or one of the new ones. Only reason I could see is if you had a 30-06 you were dearly in love with and wanted to wring just a tad more out of it by reaming out to the AI.

If this is just a philosophical question, I'm all for that. It's a little cold and boring up here this week.

 

[gerry]

No problem, I'm just thinking about all possibilities right now. I do agree the standard 30-06 is great especially with new powders that are coming out.

 

[30-338]

Just thinking about a few things here in the dead of winter and was wondering about a few things.

How much real difference would there be between the standard 30-06, the 30-06 AI and 30-280 AI? I know that Nosler's data shows the 30-06 AI having a fair bit more speed but I think a large part of that comes from the 30-06 being loaded to a lower pressure. With an even playing field of 65,000 psi I wonder what the difference would be?

When I first join site here I did build some wildcats and this is one of my post about certain one and only posting part of that post.


I'm shooting 9 AI chamber rifles right now and one of my few not so good wildcat took the nolser 280AI case and necked it up to 30cal got alittle more case capacity over the 30-06AI. Accuracy wasn't a problem velocity wasn't there.


I still have the loading data from that rifle. I sold the barrel,cases and dies. Powders I use was R-19,H-4350,IMR-4350,H-4831 and I build that rifle to shoot the 165gr AB and my loading data came from LRH site. Looking at DrMike data for 30-06AI @ 64K psi using R-19 with 165gr AB I did get little better velocity.

 

[preacher]

Many years ago I tried two 30-06AIs, one in 22" bbl and one in 26". I got right at 50fps more ( 150-165) in the 22". I got terrific accuracy with the Sierra 200SBT in the 26" Shilen but could never get to 2700fps. I don't have my notes on those, but I want to say I only used H4350 for the lighter bullets and H4831 for the 200gr. I felt it was just not worth it "to me". Maybe, you could really benefit from the 30/280AI and the 130 TTSX in a 26" with one of the newer powders through? Or just try something like the old 30 Gibbs with the 130?

 

[Billyram]

I've never been impressed by A.I. cartridges. If the pressures are kept the same the gains I've seen were small if any but at the same time using more powder = more recoil/barrel wear. Fire forming brass seems to be a waste of a good barrel. If I wanted more velocity than the standard 30-06 I would have one of the 300 mags. Something that would give me more than just 50-100 fps over the 30-06.
Billy