3k fps w/ 168 NBTs through good ole Spingfield!

[efw]

I've always been curious about whether its possible to safely hit 3k fps w/ 165s through my mountain-weight '06. I've come close w/ H414 and RL19, but never actually hit it until today.

I was testing 168 NBTs w/ Ramshot Hunter, sparked by Win-LRM primers in RP cases.

I worked my way up, this is an over-max load that showed excessive pressure signs through my rifle so do not take this as safe through yours, please.

At 63 gr I had 3074, 3038, and 3003 fps and about an inch for three shots. It was a pretty hot day (I like working my loads up in the heat) and the last two of the primers were definately flattened, each more than the last. It is as hot as I'd ever care to go, and I honestly doubt I'd run this load again... although...

I've been told by a guy I really trust that this is a bullet tough enough for elk and I think when I go out next fall I might have to try this load. It seems like the perfect rifle/load combination for those beasts!

I'm pretty sure I could zero this load for 200 yards and get pretty darned confident out to 400.

Pics to come...

 

[DrMike]

Fascinating. I don't doubt that you can get 3000 fps in your '06. It would be interesting to have a strain gauge over the chamber to see what pressure was being generated.

 

[Guest]

efw,
I just loaded up some 165 Ballistic Tips with Ramshot Hunter and CCI-250 primers for the 06. Just haven't gone to the range yet. I love the H4350 load I developed at just over 2,800 fps but was intrigued by Hunter Powder. Anxious to see the results.

Don

 

[Gm weatherby man]

I don't really care to push any gun, if I want more speed then I'll buy the cal that will give me what I want all day no worry, if I want to hot rod I'll build a dragster. :lol:

 

[efw]

GMWM,

You're absolutely right. I've always been one who said "if you want a magnum, buy one" but for some reason the 3k virus even got me too!

I won't be pushing it anymore. As reported here, I've gotten mid-2900s w/out excessive pressure signs from RLs -17 and -19, as well as Hunter.

 

[BK]

You guys who have worked with Hunter: have you ever tested whether magnum primers help performance?

 

[efw]

Yeah it does. Ramshot powders are all ball powders, so it is good to use mag primers even when working w/ medium cartridges like the '06.

I've had amazing results from this powder, particularly in my 6-250 which is giving me performance around that of a .243 Win w/out any signs of excess pressure.

 

[DrMike]

Hunter has a place in my powder inventory. It benefits from a magnum priemer.

 

[efw]

Here are the pics of the caseheads and group:

The more I look at those flat primers the more I'm happy to stick with "only" 2900 fps and genuine <1" groups!

 

[bullet]

Why would you run those pressures when there are so many options in powders? If you want those velocities then you can move up to a magnum and get them without pressures??? Not safe nor good for the rifle.

 

[PJGunner]

I don't really care to push any gun, if I want more speed then I'll buy the cal that will give me what I want all day no worry, if I want to hot rod I'll build a dragster. :lol:

I'll agree with you, up to a point. Tere are a few cartridges that are deliberately underloaded by the factories because of the weak guns they were originally chambered to. The 1893, 1895, 1896 Mausers, the low number 1903 Spring fiels immediately come to mind. Undersloaded cartridges include the .257 Robt., 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, .280 Rem., our own beloved 30-06 and even the .35 Whelen. The .257, 7x57 because of the weak 93,95 and 96 mausers. The .280 because it was used first in an autoloader and the 06 and Whelen because many old Springfiled and even 1895 Winchester were either rebarreled or ebored to take the Whelen. If the .270 Win. can be loaded to 65KPSI in a modern rifle, why can't any of the others mention not be loaded to that same 65KPSI instead of a 46KPSI of the two Mauser rounds and 50 KPSI of the .280 and 30-06? My two Winchester M70 Featherweights in .257 Bob and 7x57 are a lot stronger than those old 1800's guns so why can't I have ammo, or at least proper load data to bring them to their full potential? I can gain a full 200 FPS with 140 gr. bullets in my 7x57 over factory ammo with no pressure problems. Brass fired at least five times still have nice tight primer pockets. Accuracy is superb.
Why do I have the feeling that those guys that do the load work up for the loading manuals have proper 5KPSI data for their rifles in the aformentioned cartridges. Sure would be nice to see what they've done along those lines.
Paul B.

 

[bullet]

The load used above is simply unsafe and not good for the rifle, plain and simple. If you don't use a pressure gauge you are just guessing and taking a chance especially when you see signs like the above brass shows. No way to get around the fact that it is not a good practice.

 

[efw]

Why would you run those pressures when there are so many options in powders? If you want those velocities then you can move up to a magnum and get them without pressures??? Not safe nor good for the rifle.

I absolutely agree, which is why I said that the more I look at those caseheads the more I'm willing to "settle" for "only" 2900 fps, which has been safely obtainable w/ this rifle.

This was a point of curiosity that was satisfied and I agree with y'all. I just fall into the "magical spell of 3k" once in a while, illogical as it may be.

 

[bullet]

Good to hear, and if you want 3000fps out of an 06 then use GS Custom bullets and you will get 3000fps without the pressures but it is the only bullet that will do that for you and still be safe and reasonable to use (not in cost or availability but in application).

 

[nomosendero]

Dropping from 3000fps to 2900fps is not a game changer as far as the type/size animal you can shoot or maximum practical range with that setup. And for paper punching that bullet at 2900 will be supersonic past 1000yds, likely as far as you may do target work with that particular rifle/scope setup. So, why do the last 100fps matter?

My 300WM Sendero may be able to hit 3200 with a 180 AccuBond, but the pressure would be extreme & 3100 with RL25 is safe with no issues, so it is not important with me.

No problem getting an urge for 3k, just shoot a 3k round.

 

[efw]

No problem getting an urge for 3k, just shoot a 3k round.

You got that right!

You were absolutely correct on the other points, too... I put the "only" and "settle" in quotes like that to suggest that there really is not a noticeable difference between 3k & 2900, and therefore no settling.

 

[kraky]

Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (CIP)
Bullet             : .308, 168, CT BalSilTip 51160
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder             : Ramshot Hunter

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   98    56.70   2737    2794   47610   9405     96.6    1.242
-09.0   99    57.33   2768    2858   49325   9500     97.0    1.222
-08.0  100    57.96   2799    2922   51110   9592     97.4    1.202  ! Near Maximum !
-07.0  101    58.59   2830    2987   52942   9679     97.8    1.184  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  102    59.22   2861    3053   54890   9762     98.1    1.165  ! Near Maximum !
-05.0  103    59.85   2892    3120   56888   9840     98.4    1.147  ! Near Maximum !
-04.0  104    60.48   2923    3187   58983   9914     98.7    1.129  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0  106    61.11   2954    3254   61154   9983     99.0    1.111  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  107    61.74   2984    3323   63417  10047     99.2    1.094  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0  108    62.37   3015    3391   65773  10107     99.4    1.077  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  109    63.00   3046    3461   68229  10161     99.6    1.060  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0  110    63.63   3077    3531   70790  10210     99.7    1.043  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  111    64.26   3107    3601   73464  10254     99.8    1.027  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  112    64.89   3138    3672   76244  10292     99.9    1.011  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  113    65.52   3168    3744   79135  10324    100.0    0.996  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  114    66.15   3198    3816   82148  10351    100.0    0.981  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    109    63.00   3172    3753   82629   9756    100.0    0.984  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    109    63.00   2864    3060   55008  10088     95.0    1.160  ! Near Maximum !

 

[efw]

Kraky,

I don't know how fair a comparison that is between the BST & NBT because of the coating on the former which I believe would increase presure, but that does illustrate a computer extrapolation of the danger the primers showed.

Ramshot lists max as 62.5 w/ a 165 gr bullet and IIRC they suggest standard primers. 61.5 w/ WLR-Ms gave me good (2900-ish) velocity and accuracy w/ those primers and I expect that'll be "my load" once I pick up an 8 lber of this stuff.

I could see a day when I use nothing but RL15, Hunter, and Magnum or RL22. How beautifully simple would THAT be???

 

[TXbaldhunter]

Some of Ramshot's load data seems a little too hot for me.I shot some loads in my 30-06 using Hunter and 165gr bullets.I was happy with the groups I got with 59.0grs and the velocity was 2800fps.That's fast enough for me,if I need more I'll get one of my 300's,they don't even start shooting good until they get above 3000fps.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Those cases show some ejector (shiny spots) and concentric friction lines that would make me somewhat nervous. I will stay at 2870 fps with my .30-06, 165 gr bullets and continue using all fingers and both eyes. I own a couple of magnums which satisfy any craving which I may have for 3000 fps+ velocities.