6.5 Creed and 140 Hot Cors

[TackDriver284]

The 140 Hot Cors did not work well for the 6.5 x 284 last month, gave up on it for the ELD-147's, but decided to try the Hot Cors in the 6.5 Creed for fun. I am not expecting one hole groups with this bullet. I had a half pound of Hybrid100V sitting there for years, decided to waste it for this experiment and save the H4350. This rifle shoots excellent with the 120 Ballistic Tips and ELD-143 and saving the last boxes I have.

Loaded 40, 40.5 , 41 grains of Hybrid100V into 3 rounds each tipped with 140 Hot Cors using virgin Nosler brass, .005" off the lands

40 grains - 2725 fps average

40.5 grains 2750 fps average

41 grains 2775 fps average
Groups opened up to 1.5 inches

Top 2 charges showed some promise, only thing I did not like was it was off horizontal plane from 40 to 40.5 grains ( shift of POI ) I have two options in mind.
Option 1 : Redo 40, 40.3 and 40.6 and see ( 3 rounds each )
Or
Option 2 : use 40.5 grains and seat deeper in three .020" increments to see if it will tighten up. Would .020" be too much, and use .010" increments?
Or
Option 3 : Load up 41, 41.3, 41.6, 41.9 till I see pressure? I feel 2750 fps as load # 2 is fast enough for a deer load, since Hot Cors is a soft bullet,,,,I was already getting to 2775 fps with 41 grains. I believe the Creed with 140's is max around 2800- 2850 fps if not mistaken? I am getting mixed info on powder charges for the Hybrid100V from different manuals and online, not sure what is what.

I'll ask a question about volume, I'm curious. If seating deeper, you have less volume, will speed increase?
Sorry for all the questions.

 

[ScottinTN65]

Lots of variables, but seating a bullet deeper lowers pressure, which of course lowers velocity.

If you start seating a bullet and extra 1/2" deeper, than pressure will increase again, but we aren't talking about bottoming the bullet out in the case.

 

[ScottinTN65]

Here you go. If you start at the lands and find pressure, you know you're good to go if you seat it .050 deeper.

 

[TackDriver284]

Lots of variables, but seating a bullet deeper lowers pressure, which of course lowers velocity.

Yes, jamming or touching the lands will increase pressure. I assumed, volume wise , if seating deeper will increase speed a tad since volume shrinks, but I guess my hunch is wrong. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[ScottinTN65]

Yes, jamming or touching the lands will increase pressure. I assumed, volume wise , if seating deeper will increase speed a tad since volume shrinks, but I guess my hunch is wrong. Thanks for pointing it out.

Seated deeper the bullet has longer to go before it hits resistance (lands). One would think it would engage the lands a little easier with a headstart, as opposed to starting off jammed in the lands.

To add more fun to the equation, it's typically opposite with handgun cartridges (not rifle cartridges fired in handguns). The deeper you seat a bullet in say a 38 special, the more pressure you develop. It's the differences between how fast burning pistol powders and progressive burning rifle powders behave.

 

[jimbires]

Mark , I've had a hard time trying to figure out powder charges with virgin brass , it just doesn't work for me . your last couple work ups with virgin brass impressed me ,with how well they worked out for you . I've been doing seating depth test first . after I find a good seating depth, I have fired brass to use while working with powder charge . I have had great results doing seating depth test with virgin brass .

the horizontal is off between these two targets , not sure just how much I'd worry about this . both groups show promise . I would work with the lower target first , 40.5 gr . these are seated at .005 off the lands . I think I would load up .010 , .020 , .030 . shoot these and see what things look like . if you have components you could even go by .005 increments , this would add .015 , and .025 . my gut tells me you'll find something between .010 and .030 jump . I'm thinking going with .020 increments is a bit to much for this bullet , you might pass up the sweet spot . when loading close to the lands be extra careful on the seating depth variance . if it's just a couple to long you'll be kissing the lands , I've found this to be a bad place to be . I'm either jammed or jumping , never kissing .

the load should speed up a little with the fired brass , I'm not sure what affect this will have on the groups .

I have used speer hot cores in the past . I can't remember how well I got them to shoot . maybe your 40.5 target is as good as they will shoot . it's still fun trying to better it .

 

[TackDriver284]

Mark , I've had a hard time trying to figure out powder charges with virgin brass , it just doesn't work for me . your last couple work ups with virgin brass impressed me ,with how well they worked out for you . I've been doing seating depth test first . after I find a good seating depth, I have fired brass to use while working with powder charge . I have had great results doing seating depth test with virgin brass .

the horizontal is off between these two targets , not sure just how much I'd worry about this . both groups show promise . I would work with the lower target first , 40.5 gr . these are seated at .005 off the lands . I think I would load up .010 , .020 , .030 . shoot these and see what things look like . if you have components you could even go by .005 increments , this would add .015 , and .025 . my gut tells me you'll find something between .010 and .030 jump . I'm thinking going with .020 increments is a bit to much for this bullet , you might pass up the sweet spot . when loading close to the lands be extra careful on the seating depth variance . if it's just a couple to long you'll be kissing the lands , I've found this to be a bad place to be . I'm either jammed or jumping , never kissing .

the load should speed up a little with the fired brass , I'm not sure what affect this will have on the groups .

I have used speer hot cores in the past . I can't remember how well I got them to shoot . maybe your 40.5 target is as good as they will shoot . it's still fun trying to better it .

Thanks for the response Jim, yes the horizonal is off big time, I'll try the .005" increments to .030"
Can you explain how you did the seating depth first and how did you pick the powder weight? That would be interesting to do next time I'm on the loading bench.

 

[jimbires]

Thanks for the response Jim, yes the horizonal is off big time, I'll try the .005" increments to .030"
Can you explain how you did the seating depth first and how did you pick the powder weight? That would be interesting to do next time I'm on the loading bench.

Mark , I've been doing seating first for awhile now . finding seating first seems to make it all about the barrel and bullet . so far my best seating seems to hold true even when I change powders . I'll find best seating , then work up powder charge . after I get my best powder charge , I usually try a seating depth change of .005 on either side of my best seating just to see if things get better . if it gets better I'll go another .005 in that direction .

I use the minimum powder charge for testing seating depth . the reason for this is , I don't want to be near a powder node . I don't want to have the powder charge influence the target results at all . I want this to be all about the bullet and barrel . if I have an idea where this bullet usually shoots well I'll load in .005 , or .010 increments in that range . if I have no idea where the bullet usually shoots well I do wide increments of .040 , like Berger describes in it's instructions for the vld bullets . it seems most of the old style cup and core bullets will shoot well from a jump between .010 - .040. something good should show up there ,so this is the range I'd work . * (edited here for more clarity .)

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

after I find best seating I'll run a powder ladder from minimum to max , or max plus a couple increments . looking for the flat velocity nodes , and watch the bullet impacts on the target . when the velocity flattens over a couple charge weights , and the holes in the target are falling around the same horizontal , this is a node . load at the center of the powder weight range and see how it does with a couple 3 shot groups .

 

[ScottinTN65]

I'm far more simple, do want little bitty groups to have little bitty groups or do you want to slay animals?

 

[TackDriver284]

Mark , I've been doing seating first for awhile now . finding seating first seems to make it all about the barrel and bullet . so far my best seating seems to hold true even when I change powders . I'll find best seating , then work up powder charge . after I get my best powder charge , I usually try a seating depth change of .005 on either side of my best seating just to see if things get better . if it gets better I'll go another .005 in that direction .

I use the minimum powder charge for testing seating depth . the reason for this is , I don't want to be near a powder node . I don't want to have the powder charge influence the target results at all . I want this to be all about the bullet and barrel . if I have an idea where this bullet usually shoots well I'll load in .005 , or .010 increments in that range . if I have no idea where the bullet usually shoots well I do wide increments of .040 , like Berger describes in it's instructions for the vld bullets . it seems most of the old style cup and core bullets will shoot well from a jump of .010 - .040

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

after I find best seating I'll run a powder ladder from minimum to max , or max plus a couple increments . looking for the flat velocity nodes , and watch the bullet impacts on the target . when the velocity flattens over a couple charge weights , and the holes in the target are falling around the same horizontal , this is a node . load at the center of the powder weight range and see how it does with a couple 3 shot groups .

Jim, what seating depth do you usually pic mostly to start off with to get an idea?

 

[TackDriver284]

I'm far more simple, do want little bitty groups to have little bitty groups or do you want to slay animals?

I'm far more realistic, I shoot small and far.
I don't see any wrong with trying to make cheap bullets shoot better, its what we all like to do. We exchange ideas and methods on helping people on the forum.
It's fun experimenting things to shrink groups.

 

[ScottinTN65]

Lots of complex stuff, nodes and all.

Here's an example of how I did it. I put a factory rifle in a Mcmillan stock, bought a used Leupold 3.5-10x and mounted it on the rifle. Before the rifle even arrived, I loaded 20 rounds of ammo, without knowing how far they'd be jumping and picked a powder charge close to the upper end.

I fired the rifle get it close at 25 then fired it at 100. The 3rd round ever fired through a new rifle was about and 1" high at 100 yards, I checked velocity with the 4th. Ran the numbers and fired at a less than MOA target at 700 yards with the 6th round, but was a hair low (not too technical, but based on where the bullet struck the ground). Dialed in .5moa and hit the less than MOA target at 700 yards. The 7th round was used 3 weeks later to kill a bear at 250 yards.

I stopped chasing groups years ago. If one is only a target shooter, then please disregard, but if you're doing it to kill game, you'll be better off backing away from groups and just shoot the dang thing at stuff, using nothing but field positions.

 

[TackDriver284]

Lots of complex stuff, nodes and all.

Here's an example of how I did it. I put a factory rifle in a Mcmillan stock, bought a used Leupold 3.5-10x and mounted it on the rifle. Before the rifle even arrived, I loaded 20 rounds of ammo, without knowing how far they'd be jumping and picked a powder charge close to the upper end.

I fired the rifle get it close at 25 then fired it at 100. The 3rd round ever fired through a new rifle was about and 1" high at 100 yards, I checked velocity with the 4th. Ran the numbers and fired at a less than MOA target at 700 yards with the 6th round, but was a hair low (not too technical, but based on where the bullet struck the ground). Dialed in .5moa and hit the less than MOA target at 700 yards. The 7th round was used 3 weeks later to kill a bear at 250 yards.

I stopped chasing groups years ago. If one is only a target shooter, then please disregard, but if you're doing it to kill game, you'll be better off backing away from groups and just shoot the dang thing at stuff, using nothing but field positions.

You picked a powder charge close to the upper end without working it up? It's not ethical to do that, its best to " work up" instead of picking a powder charge on the upper end, slap a load together, make 20 rounds before your new rifle arrived. It sounds what a newbie would do.
Keep in mind, there are many who likes to shoot small, hunt and have fun with a few load developments to share on here. I learned a lot from these guys on the forum, real helpful people.
I won't debate with you here, I'm more interested in my question and those who are have constructive responses instead of those who slap loads together on a rifle they never have seen before.

 

[jimbires]

Jim, what seating depth do you usually pic mostly to start off with to get an idea?

Mark , I start at .010 jump . then just work away in the increments .

I really like to jump my bullets . I have one rifle that I jam the bullets , it shot best there . it does shoot really good , but it's a pain in the neck . I can't eject a live round , I have to shoot it off . if I eject a live round , the bullet stays stuck in the bbl , and usually powder spills down through everything . I mostly use this rifle for groundhogs . I can feed from the magazine , so I fill the magazine and keep the chamber empty until a shot presents itself . if I loose out on the shot , I fire it off at the end of my day .

 

[TackDriver284]

Mark , I start at .010 jump . then just work away in the increments .

I really like to jump my bullets . I have one rifle that I jam the bullets , it shot best there . it does shoot really good , but it's a pain in the neck . I can't eject a live round , I have to shoot it off . if I eject a live round , the bullet stays stuck in the bbl , and usually powder spills down through everything . I mostly use this rifle for groundhogs . I can feed from the magazine , so I fill the magazine and keep the chamber empty until a shot presents itself . if I loose out on the shot , I fire it off at the end of my day .

Thanks Jim, .010" is an ideal measurement.

 

[AFG270]

Mark , I've been doing seating first for awhile now . finding seating first seems to make it all about the barrel and bullet . so far my best seating seems to hold true even when I change powders . I'll find best seating , then work up powder charge . after I get my best powder charge , I usually try a seating depth change of .005 on either side of my best seating just to see if things get better . if it gets better I'll go another .005 in that direction .

I use the minimum powder charge for testing seating depth . the reason for this is , I don't want to be near a powder node . I don't want to have the powder charge influence the target results at all . I want this to be all about the bullet and barrel . if I have an idea where this bullet usually shoots well I'll load in .005 , or .010 increments in that range . if I have no idea where the bullet usually shoots well I do wide increments of .040 , like Berger describes in it's instructions for the vld bullets . it seems most of the old style cup and core bullets will shoot well from a jump between .010 - .040. something good should show up there ,so this is the range I'd work . * (edited here for more clarity .)

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

after I find best seating I'll run a powder ladder from minimum to max , or max plus a couple increments . looking for the flat velocity nodes , and watch the bullet impacts on the target . when the velocity flattens over a couple charge weights , and the holes in the target are falling around the same horizontal , this is a node . load at the center of the powder weight range and see how it does with a couple 3 shot groups .

Great info, Jim and Mark! Thank you for posting.

 

[ScottinTN65]

You picked a powder charge close to the upper end without working it up? It's not ethical to do that, its best to " work up" instead of picking a powder charge on the upper end, slap a load together, make 20 rounds before your new rifle arrived. It sounds what a newbie would do.
Keep in mind, there are many who likes to shoot small, hunt and have fun with a few load developments to share on here. I learned a lot from these guys on the forum, real helpful people.
I won't debate with you here, I'm more interested in my question and those who are have constructive responses instead of those who slap loads together on a rifle they never have seen before.

Says the guy that doesn't even know the first thing about seating depth and pressure. Good luck sunshine.

 

[RL338]

Not apples to apples , but my Howa 6.5 Creed shoots 140s best at 2750 and 0.020” off. Didn’t see a barrel length mentioned , mine is 24”. I would try 40.5 grs and 0.020” off and see what you get.

 

[jimbires]

I recently started testing a new to me bullet , the Nosler 300 grain custom competition . I've pretty much always shot the 300 gr Bergers . the custom competition bullets do not look as slick as the bergers , so I thought that maybe it would want to be close to the lands . I did .010 , .020 , .060 , .100 , .140 jumps . the .010 , and the .140 are 4 shots , the others are 5 shots .if I shoot a couple that don't look good I stop shooting . more bullets is not going to tighten up the group . I think the .020 target would be better if I didn't shoot up the center on the first shot .I usually turn the scope up 1 moa , and to the side 1 moa to help save my aim point . the .100 target shot 5 went out of the group . it felt good but could have been me jerking . so I think I have 2 seating depths that are decent to work with . now I've loaded a powder ladder from 100 gr - 105.5 gr , in half grain increments . I'll shoot the ladder using the labradar , and watching bullet impacts . I'll probably do this at both .020 , and .100 jumps . this rifle has a heavy barrel , 1" at the muzzle. to shoot a ladder it needs to be shot at distance, or it just blows one big hole , and you can't tell anything . I'll shoot the ladders at 500 or 600 yards to try and get some separation between the powder weights . I need a decent low or no wind day for this .

here is a pic of the Nosler custom competition , beside a Berger , both are 300 grain .the Nosler is on the left . also a pic of my seating target from a few days ago .this is virgin brass .

 

[DrMike]

Says the guy that doesn't even know the first thing about seating depth and pressure. Good luck sunshine.

You're gaining nothing by being rude. Can't see that others are going to be impressed with that attitude. ScottinTN65, you clearly have some knowledge and something worth sharing, but attitude goes a long way. You can initiate a conversation or start a fight, and which it will be is determined in no small measure by attitude. Hope you are able to continue posting, but with a view to contributing rather than combatting.