6.5 Creedmoor - why?
- Thread starter GeorgeS
- Start date
George, as I have mentioned before about good quality bullets on the market today "how many angels can dance on the head of a pen?"
I think at last count there were at least 8, 6.5's available and in one form or another they would all "work"
I will stick with the 6.5 Swede. but I believe the Swede will live on in Europe and Africa, and the Creedmore will soon be the 6.5 of choice in America. However I also believe the 260 will remain popular and the 264 will fade.
But I also thought little Nash vehicle was cute and would survive --it didn't
I think at last count there were at least 8, 6.5's available and in one form or another they would all "work"
I will stick with the 6.5 Swede. but I believe the Swede will live on in Europe and Africa, and the Creedmore will soon be the 6.5 of choice in America. However I also believe the 260 will remain popular and the 264 will fade.
But I also thought little Nash vehicle was cute and would survive --it didn't
A
Anonymous
Guest
I'll take a poke at it...I like my 6.5CM, but I won't go as far as some of the folks. It's not magic...just a very well designed cartridge with better than average industry support.
The .260 was basically designed around the 120gr bullet, because Americans love muzzle velocity and the .260 just doesn't have the case capacity to propel heavy for caliber bullets to high speed...at least with 1997 gunpowder. They gave the initial guns a 1:10 twist which didn't work all that hot with 140s and 140s loaded long to get powder space wouldn't fit in the magazine anyway. Combined with piss-poor marketing by Remington and it was generally regarded as a "ladies and kid's" cartridge for deer. Remington has a "so-so" history of cartridge introductions and has probably spawned more orphan cartridges than any other maker in the business. It's like they put it out there and simply forget about it.
The 6.5CM had the shoulder bumped back to allow 140s to fit the magazine, the advantage of 2007 gunpowder and modern long slippery bullets and a target market comfortable with BDC dials and laser rangefinders as part of their standard kit...who cares if the MV is 2900 or 2600 when you're dialing the trajectory anyway? It caught on with the PRC crowd and made the leap to hunting rifles early. It's just a very, very easy cartridge to shoot well in a good rifle.
The 6.5's technical advantages over the 260 are mostly in the LR department and are minute at best... but the advantage in the hunting marketplace is basically in a first rate marketing campaign and very, very good support by manufacturers. 6.5CM accounted for 9% of Hornady's sales last year...which says volumes about the amount of investment they made in the cartridge that are paying off. Lapua is making 6.5CM brass now which basically kills off their proprietary 6.5x47L in most of the American market. The 6.5CM may not be all that better of a cartridge (or even worse)...but in the marketplace it's the clear winner. At this time it outsells all other 6.5 cartridges in the N.American market combined.
I did shoot a caribou this year with my 6.5... it worked exactly as advertised so I've got no complaints. I could have made the shot with any of dozens of cartridges, but the 6.5 is what was there largely because Barrett chambered it and shipped the rifles because the market likes it. Sort of a "chicken and egg" kind of thing.
The .260 was basically designed around the 120gr bullet, because Americans love muzzle velocity and the .260 just doesn't have the case capacity to propel heavy for caliber bullets to high speed...at least with 1997 gunpowder. They gave the initial guns a 1:10 twist which didn't work all that hot with 140s and 140s loaded long to get powder space wouldn't fit in the magazine anyway. Combined with piss-poor marketing by Remington and it was generally regarded as a "ladies and kid's" cartridge for deer. Remington has a "so-so" history of cartridge introductions and has probably spawned more orphan cartridges than any other maker in the business. It's like they put it out there and simply forget about it.
The 6.5CM had the shoulder bumped back to allow 140s to fit the magazine, the advantage of 2007 gunpowder and modern long slippery bullets and a target market comfortable with BDC dials and laser rangefinders as part of their standard kit...who cares if the MV is 2900 or 2600 when you're dialing the trajectory anyway? It caught on with the PRC crowd and made the leap to hunting rifles early. It's just a very, very easy cartridge to shoot well in a good rifle.
The 6.5's technical advantages over the 260 are mostly in the LR department and are minute at best... but the advantage in the hunting marketplace is basically in a first rate marketing campaign and very, very good support by manufacturers. 6.5CM accounted for 9% of Hornady's sales last year...which says volumes about the amount of investment they made in the cartridge that are paying off. Lapua is making 6.5CM brass now which basically kills off their proprietary 6.5x47L in most of the American market. The 6.5CM may not be all that better of a cartridge (or even worse)...but in the marketplace it's the clear winner. At this time it outsells all other 6.5 cartridges in the N.American market combined.
I did shoot a caribou this year with my 6.5... it worked exactly as advertised so I've got no complaints. I could have made the shot with any of dozens of cartridges, but the 6.5 is what was there largely because Barrett chambered it and shipped the rifles because the market likes it. Sort of a "chicken and egg" kind of thing.
Cleveland48
Handloader
- Jul 28, 2015
- 1,972
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Having owned a 260 Rem, 6.5x55, and 6.5 Creedmoor I'll tell the things I've learned with all three. First off they all kill the same lol there's not a lick of difference between them on game. The old 6.5 Swede is fantastic, but it's for a Reloader no doubt. The American factory ammo is so watered down it looks weak on paper. Loaded with modern powders in modern actions it will be faster than the 260 and 6.5 CM. The 260 biggest pitfall was Remington letting it die with no help. Plus as mentioned earlier they had the twist all wrong at 1:10 or 1:9. Also you loose a lot of the powder space the larger case of the 260 has by having to seat the long 140 plus grain bullets to deep in the case. This can be avoided by having a 1:8 twist barrel and a longer magazine box. Now to the 6.5 CM. It had a great case design, hardly any taper and a 30 degree shoulder. My brass hardly ever needs trimmed. While the CM case is shorter than the 260, the bullets can be seated way out easily to the lands. None of my loads have the bullet seated below the neck, so practically you get all that powder space. And the probably the most important is cheap extremely accurate factory ammo. I don't even load practice ammo anymore. I just go buy $19-25 match ammo and have consistent half inch groups. They all have basically the same ballistics. As for as performance on deer I've taken 20 with the 260 Rem, 6 with the 6.5x55, and so far 5 with a 6.5 CM. All did the exact same job, but overall accuracy between factory and handloads the 6.5 CM in two different rifles have been far more accurate than the other two. I had great loads for the 260 and the Swede, but it took some work more work to find them. I honestly wish I still had all of them. 260 with 120 BT at 2900 was great deer load, the 140's in the Swede at 2700 plus for all around game, and my current 6.5 CM for target, or game. But cool factor will always go to the Swede [emoji41]in my book.
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A
Anonymous
Guest
Cleveland48":36r5gqyy said:
I think you're on to something here...I'm not even going to try loading for my 6.5. I can buy all the 1/2MOA factory ammo I could want in the $19-25 range. Any savings I could see wouldn't be worth the time I'd spend doing it...and I can't outshoot what I've already got.
I've got two hunting loads- the 143ELDX and the 129ABLR....both 1/2MOA and both in the $35 range. The 4 boxes I've got will last me a long, long time. Performance of the ELDX was pretty much perfect for caribou as well.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Not to sound like an irrational fan boy...but I think I could easily dump everything I've got in the short action and "sub-30" class like the 7-08, .308, .270, etc. and roll with the 6.5 for all of it.
I've toyed with the idea of selling off my much loved Steyr Scout to fund the suppressor my Barrett really craves.
I've toyed with the idea of selling off my much loved Steyr Scout to fund the suppressor my Barrett really craves.
- Thread starter
- #8
Thanks.
I am very familiar with Remington's propensity to orphan cartridges within five years and the .260 Remington is essentially moribund at this point
The impetus for my post is the news that Ruger is offering an American 'Predator; with threaded muzzle.
Of course, I need another caliber to deal with (I don't own any 6.5s) like I need another hole in my wallet. :lol:
George
I am very familiar with Remington's propensity to orphan cartridges within five years and the .260 Remington is essentially moribund at this point
The impetus for my post is the news that Ruger is offering an American 'Predator; with threaded muzzle.
Of course, I need another caliber to deal with (I don't own any 6.5s) like I need another hole in my wallet. :lol:
George
A
Anonymous
Guest
A friend of mine set up a Predator for a mutual acquaintance of ours.... it shoots bug holes at 100yds and he's got less than $600 in the whole rig. Screwing a suppressor on it makes a charismatic cartridge downright charming.
If there's any "magic" to the 6.5CM, it's that every rifle I'm aware of seems to exhibit great accuracy. I'm sure there's one out there...but if there's a dud, I'm not aware of it. I know of a lot more 1/2" guns than 1" guns and I've not yet heard of a 2" gun in the cartridge.
My Barrett is the most accurate rifle I own...but so would that $300 Predator if it were mine.
If there's any "magic" to the 6.5CM, it's that every rifle I'm aware of seems to exhibit great accuracy. I'm sure there's one out there...but if there's a dud, I'm not aware of it. I know of a lot more 1/2" guns than 1" guns and I've not yet heard of a 2" gun in the cartridge.
My Barrett is the most accurate rifle I own...but so would that $300 Predator if it were mine.
Cleveland48
Handloader
- Jul 28, 2015
- 1,972
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I've only used 3 cartridges since 2008 and that is the 260, 6.5x55, and 6.5 CM. And I've always been I die hard 270 win guy. I still load my hunting ammo which this year will be the 120 TTSX and 140 Gameking. I've just started buying range ammo now a days. But there are some fantastic 6.5 CM factory hunting loads. And so far they all shoot great, and it's hard to beat them with handloads.
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Africa Huntress
Handloader
- Feb 14, 2012
- 461
- 2
cleveland48 and Hodgeman
Perhaps I am mis understanding or mis reading, but I have used store bought ammo from Norma for the Swede ( 120 gr, for capercailzie hunts, 140 gr for your deer size game and 156 for larger game and they all worked well. The 156 gr Norma Oryx is a very lethal load in the Swede. I do not shoot competitively, so can not speak to that, but for hunting I have no complaints with their factory loads. You mentioned the Swede is better for reloader's is why I ask. Not a big deal, Just curious gentlemen.
Best Regards
Jamila
Perhaps I am mis understanding or mis reading, but I have used store bought ammo from Norma for the Swede ( 120 gr, for capercailzie hunts, 140 gr for your deer size game and 156 for larger game and they all worked well. The 156 gr Norma Oryx is a very lethal load in the Swede. I do not shoot competitively, so can not speak to that, but for hunting I have no complaints with their factory loads. You mentioned the Swede is better for reloader's is why I ask. Not a big deal, Just curious gentlemen.
Best Regards
Jamila
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jamila- the majority of U.S. 6.5 Swede ammunition is pretty watered down. Despite much greater case capacity, the average domestic Swede load isn't any faster than my 18" Creedmoor with equivalent bullet weights. That's about on par with every military surplus cartridge loaded in the U.S. actually.
Norma loads the Swede to it's full potential with modern pressures- but they've been hard to source in the U.S. historically.To get the full deal out of the Swede really required rolling your own.
Norma loads the Swede to it's full potential with modern pressures- but they've been hard to source in the U.S. historically.To get the full deal out of the Swede really required rolling your own.
Cleveland48
Handloader
- Jul 28, 2015
- 1,972
- 166
Africa Huntress":37795ez6 said:
Jamila I love the Swede it's my most favorite 6.5, and Norma loads it like it's suppose to be loaded. Unfortunately Americans water down there factory loads. I tried some of our factory loads that was supposed to be 2550 with 140 gr loads. They averaged in the 2250-2350 fps range [emoji17]which was disappointing. The European countries know that it is capable of much more, and load it right. America apparently does the same thing to the 7x57 and 8x57 Mauser, which is capable of so much more. If I had supply to great European ammo like that I'd never give up a 6.5x55 for the other 6.5's [emoji16].
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cloverleaf
Handloader
- Sep 10, 2006
- 4,433
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hodgeman":1yj2emq9 said:
THIS- if the 6.5 Sweede wasn't so hard to come by in a good load the 6.5 realm would have been a whole lot different YEARS ago. For example the 256 Newton was around and well designed (in my under educated opinion) a long time ago. And really- for 90%+ of the shooters out there the 270 will do what the Creed does. The Creed a good round?...you bet, but not worth selling an accurate 270, 308, or even 250 Savage (
:roll: ) for.... Lookout for the marketing.... and try not to mistake the accuracy of the cartridge, for better barrel machining, laser range finders, good triggers and interplanetary telescopic sights. IF everything was equal....but it rarely is. CL- Thread starter
- #16
The main reason U.S.-made ammunition for the 6.5x55 is mild is that there are a LOT of M96 Mausers in circulation. They are not as strong as the Model 98 actions.
Firearms here are not proof-tested like they are in Europe.
Plus, we have a LOT of tort lawyers.
George
Firearms here are not proof-tested like they are in Europe.
Plus, we have a LOT of tort lawyers.
George
35 Whelen
Handloader
- Dec 22, 2011
- 2,249
- 573
Still always comes back to case capacity............ try as they might with fancy marketing
For the slick little Creedmore, I have never seen so much hype in my life over a cartridge,
The thing has been very ,very cleaverly marketed. It's a wonderful round. However when
The smoke all clears and the next best thing gets introduced; the honest truth is, even after
Over 100 years later, the Sweede can easily be loaded up in a modern action to look back and
Say "Catch me if you can ?" Problem is they just can't.
For the slick little Creedmore, I have never seen so much hype in my life over a cartridge,
The thing has been very ,very cleaverly marketed. It's a wonderful round. However when
The smoke all clears and the next best thing gets introduced; the honest truth is, even after
Over 100 years later, the Sweede can easily be loaded up in a modern action to look back and
Say "Catch me if you can ?" Problem is they just can't.
Paul Barnard
Beginner
- Oct 12, 2004
- 190
- 8
GeorgeS":36nc3xfi said:
The 260 is far from moribund. Most larger online dealers stock upwards of 15 or 20 different 260 Remington rifles. Seems the 260 is coat tailing on the 6.5 craze and is enjoying a bit of a resurgence. When this craze passes I suspect it will fall off into relative obscurity, but it's in good shape for now.
Paul Barnard":3lauu3wo said:
Efficiency never really goes out of style: sure, the powder burning Mule kickers get the front page, but normally, the "Plain Vanilla" more often fills the Freezer, time after time, after time.
I think the main bullet manufacturers finally giving the 6.5 more formidable, high BC projectiles made folks realize the lesser burning powder rounds do a great job of filling the freezer, & More Efficiency, too.
I hung my old .270 with Accubonds up in favor of a .260 with an Accubonds, which both are completely acceptable for much of the lower 48 hunting.
longrangehunter
Handloader
- Jun 19, 2011
- 1,483
- 7
George,
Now that Lapua is selling brass, and is using a 1.5mm flash hole/small rifle primer the Creedmoor can be loaded just as fast as the 260, and do it in a better designed case! I have a GAP built 6.5 x 47L and a 260 Rem. my first was the 260 built by George Gardner himself...... that gun will get a facelift (barrel job) this winter, and it will be a 6.5 Creedmoor!
So I do have almost 500 pcs. of Lapua 260 Rem. 3x brass, and a Redding 260 Rem. Type S Match die set, and a Type S Neck die if that interests anyone?
Is there a difference once the bullet leaves the barrel and hits steel or a Game animal, Nope, and you know that! But if you lose your ammo abroad you should be able to find factory ammo that will shoot well in the Creedmoor, which is a plus.
Now that Lapua is selling brass, and is using a 1.5mm flash hole/small rifle primer the Creedmoor can be loaded just as fast as the 260, and do it in a better designed case! I have a GAP built 6.5 x 47L and a 260 Rem. my first was the 260 built by George Gardner himself...... that gun will get a facelift (barrel job) this winter, and it will be a 6.5 Creedmoor!
So I do have almost 500 pcs. of Lapua 260 Rem. 3x brass, and a Redding 260 Rem. Type S Match die set, and a Type S Neck die if that interests anyone?
Is there a difference once the bullet leaves the barrel and hits steel or a Game animal, Nope, and you know that! But if you lose your ammo abroad you should be able to find factory ammo that will shoot well in the Creedmoor, which is a plus.
