a poll to settle an argument on terminal ballistics

[onesonek]

The only time I have seen or heard of a standard cup & core type pencil through, was with match style hollow point, where part of the metal nose folded inward capping it off and essentially making it a "solid" or fmj.
If you have an expanding type hunting bullet, the faster it impacts the faster it opens, the faster it reaches terminal sectional density, the less it penetrates. Slower, the oposite happens. This all can be altered to a degree with different construction methods. If it dont open and pencils through, it is a failure of some sort.
Think of it this way,,,, speed/energy expands the bullet, penetration kills. But to have one driven so fast that it don't have time to expand is not physics, its hypothetical as far as I see it. Bullet expansion works on pressure, not time persay to the question. Time only matters in what I stated above, and then how long it take to traverse the target/or come to a stop within, due to momentum and terminal SD. The time the bullet is in the animal is miniscule,,, to think an exta 500 or even 1000 fps will change things from a time standpoint,,,just don't quite add up to me.

 

[FOTIS]

1- a bullet may hit a target (read deer) so fast if shot from short range at high velocity (3300-3500 fps) that it will not have time to start expending and will just pencil thru. it's a law of physics

If it is in fact a hunting expanding bullet the above statement is false.

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

As it has been said, this question is trying to make a black and white out of a grey area. In physics, precious few things are constant in all planes and universes of control but in my humble experience, I tend to lean towards #2...because the faster a bullet is driven the more likely it is to deform be that thru controlled or violent expansion or simply bending or warping as in the case of some full metal jacketed bullets and typically then the slower a bullet is driven the more it is likely to not experience any deformation, upset, expansion, bending or warping.

Now before you guys rack the bolt and get ready to give me the whole nine yards...I say that is the truth so far as to cover the broadest spectrum of experience. As was mentioned, premium controlled expansion bullets and high velocity rifles have bent and even broken these rules on many occasions. A practical man myself I too have seen unusual results from even standard velocity cartridges shooting premium bullets or not so premium bullets enough to know that the exceptions are not the rule. Even though they break the rules on several occasions.

Without going into too much more detail and getting to have to get my running shoes on before you fellas all let fly I will suffice it to say, I have never seen a "pencil through" from either high or standard velocity rifles shooting special or standard bullets at any range unless it is a FULL METAL JACKET as that is their design, that is to not expand on impact but to tumble or "pencil through."

 

[Ridge_Runner]

I don't know, but I can give you this experience I had years ago with a 270 and a 270 weatherby.
For years I hunted our small deer with a 270 win and a 110 gr hornady hp, it did a great job with the exception of a shoulder hit then thigs got messy. so I switched to a 110 gr sierra soft point boat tail. I shot 2 deer with that load at 60-80 yards and the bullet would pencil through even hard quartering shots and I'd end up with a long tracking job.
I put the rounds away and went to a 130 for deer hunting and used the remaining 110's for varmints, when shooting groundhogs with the 110's at 200-300 yards, they would completely blow a groundhog in 1/2.
My results with the 130's were satisfactory on deer, so when I purchased the 270 weatherby I went straight to the 130's, again on deer I got very little expansionso after shooting 5-6 deer I switched to the 140 gr sierra pro hunter HP and started seeing better expansion.
I assumed the bullets were just fired in the wrong velocity window in these 2 instances for propper expansion with the higher velocity giving the least amount of expansion.
I still don't know but this is my own real world experiences.
RR

 

[Elkman]

My neighbor whom has a doctorate degree in pysics says, the frontal part of a bulle begains to deterorate upon leaving the case, The loss is margainal untiil of course it impacts a substance, but even if expanison is not complete due to lack of mass it is still degrading the point. Even travel through air starts the process. He did also say,that the faster the speed the more likely total breakup will occur upon impact even with minimually dense object"s. I believe his statement supports #2, The faster the more likely breakup!

i. Observations from the Sciuchetti Data - The Effect of Impact Velocity

I also have his data and have quoted from it here a few times.

 

[caribouhunter]

I don't know, but I can give you this experience I had years ago with a 270 and a 270 weatherby.
For years I hunted our small deer with a 270 win and a 110 gr hornady hp, it did a great job with the exception of a shoulder hit then thigs got messy. so I switched to a 110 gr sierra soft point boat tail. I shot 2 deer with that load at 60-80 yards and the bullet would pencil through even hard quartering shots and I'd end up with a long tracking job.
I put the rounds away and went to a 130 for deer hunting and used the remaining 110's for varmints, when shooting groundhogs with the 110's at 200-300 yards, they would completely blow a groundhog in 1/2.
My results with the 130's were satisfactory on deer, so when I purchased the 270 weatherby I went straight to the 130's, again on deer I got very little expansionso after shooting 5-6 deer I switched to the 140 gr sierra pro hunter HP and started seeing better expansion.
I assumed the bullets were just fired in the wrong velocity window in these 2 instances for propper expansion with the higher velocity giving the least amount of expansion.
I still don't know but this is my own real world experiences.
RR

Your experience is interesting RR cause it supports my opponents view. And so far your the only one who had the same case happens, and from your story, it happened more then once.
So you had complete penetration through, and limited internal damage?

 

[Ridge_Runner]

I don't know, but I can give you this experience I had years ago with a 270 and a 270 weatherby.
For years I hunted our small deer with a 270 win and a 110 gr hornady hp, it did a great job with the exception of a shoulder hit then thigs got messy. so I switched to a 110 gr sierra soft point boat tail. I shot 2 deer with that load at 60-80 yards and the bullet would pencil through even hard quartering shots and I'd end up with a long tracking job.
I put the rounds away and went to a 130 for deer hunting and used the remaining 110's for varmints, when shooting groundhogs with the 110's at 200-300 yards, they would completely blow a groundhog in 1/2.
My results with the 130's were satisfactory on deer, so when I purchased the 270 weatherby I went straight to the 130's, again on deer I got very little expansionso after shooting 5-6 deer I switched to the 140 gr sierra pro hunter HP and started seeing better expansion.
I assumed the bullets were just fired in the wrong velocity window in these 2 instances for propper expansion with the higher velocity giving the least amount of expansion.
I still don't know but this is my own real world experiences.
RR

Your experience is interesting RR cause it supports my opponents view. And so far your the only one who had the same case happens, and from your story, it happened more then once.
So you had complete penetration through, and limited internal damage?

Thats correct, not saying I had no expansion but exit wound on the deer wasn't noticably larger than the entrance. these were the only instances I could recall and thats from a pool of many, many bullet cartridge combo's. If not for these 2 occurances I would have wholeheartedly supported your view, but until I understand without a doubt what happened I just have to say I only know enough to say "Idon't know"
RR

 

[SJB358]

I am with opinion #2. I just can't see a bullet not expanding more, being driven faster. Shot a whole lot of jugs and a couple of animals in my hunting life and the further you get from the muzzle, the more limited expansion is.

Ridge, I wonder if the 110 didn't pretty much vaporize when being driven so fast that maybe a piece of jacket or the lead core was the only thing that exited, resulting in a small exit? It doesn't explain the long tracking job though, cause I would have thought the deer would have been terminally ill, very fast from that much trauma. I do believe what you stated, but there just has to be something else, unless, being a HP (if it was) that is somehow plugged and didn't allow for further expansion. It is really the oddity of the whole though..

I have heard that a 100 times now, "you need to slow the bullet down to get expansion"... That is pretty much crap in my eyes. If it won't expand off the muzzle, it won't expand in 300 yards. I would like to see someone use some media, to prove that. I have a feeling it would be a short test. Scotty

 

[Ridge_Runner]

I am with opinion #2. I just can't see a bullet not expanding more, being driven faster. Shot a whole lot of jugs and a couple of animals in my hunting life and the further you get from the muzzle, the more limited expansion is.

Ridge, I wonder if the 110 didn't pretty much vaporize when being driven so fast that maybe a piece of jacket or the lead core was the only thing that exited, resulting in a small exit? It doesn't explain the long tracking job though, cause I would have thought the deer would have been terminally ill, very fast from that much trauma. I do believe what you stated, but there just has to be something else, unless, being a HP (if it was) that is somehow plugged and didn't allow for further expansion. It is really the oddity of the whole though..

I have heard that a 100 times now, "you need to slow the bullet down to get expansion"... That is pretty much crap in my eyes. If it won't expand off the muzzle, it won't expand in 300 yards. I would like to see someone use some media, to prove that. I have a feeling it would be a short test. Scotty

well the entrance wounds on the 2 deer shot with the sierra 110's which were sp bullets, showed little trauma, not the typical bloodshot as you would expect from a high velocity impact, though no heavy bone was encountered, my thinking was it should have gotten more expansion than it did. didn't make sense to me either, just relaying the events here since it came up on the forums.
Never did bring it up before because, as you say it don't make sense. one of the few times in my reloading career which spans several decades that I never could come up with a feasable explanation.
RR

 

[SJB358]

I am with opinion #2. I just can't see a bullet not expanding more, being driven faster. Shot a whole lot of jugs and a couple of animals in my hunting life and the further you get from the muzzle, the more limited expansion is.

Ridge, I wonder if the 110 didn't pretty much vaporize when being driven so fast that maybe a piece of jacket or the lead core was the only thing that exited, resulting in a small exit? It doesn't explain the long tracking job though, cause I would have thought the deer would have been terminally ill, very fast from that much trauma. I do believe what you stated, but there just has to be something else, unless, being a HP (if it was) that is somehow plugged and didn't allow for further expansion. It is really the oddity of the whole though..

I have heard that a 100 times now, "you need to slow the bullet down to get expansion"... That is pretty much crap in my eyes. If it won't expand off the muzzle, it won't expand in 300 yards. I would like to see someone use some media, to prove that. I have a feeling it would be a short test. Scotty

well the entrance wounds on the 2 deer shot with the sierra 110's which were sp bullets, showed little trauma, not the typical bloodshot as you would expect from a high velocity impact, though no heavy bone was encountered, my thinking was it should have gotten more expansion than it did. didn't make sense to me either, just relaying the events here since it came up on the forums.
Never did bring it up before because, as you say it don't make sense. one of the few times in my reloading career which spans several decades that I never could come up with a feasable explanation.
RR

Yeah, I am with you RR. I wasn't questioning you, just wondering. I guess bullets do weird things sometimes. It is pretty cool to see/hear examples of those kinds of things. Terminal ballistics are always kind of a benefit of taking game. I like to see what happened!

I guess if a bullet could be driven to fast to not expand, your big 7 could do it! Scotty

 

[JD338]

Ridge,

That is indeed strange. I started thinking a plugged HP like Scotty mentioned but you indicated they were SP.
I have to draw the same conclusion, "I dont know".

It would be interesting to shoot a couple of them into soaked phone books along side a known expanding bullet and see what you get.

JD338

 

[Elkman]

Quote:
Observations from the Sciuchetti Data - The Effect of Impact Velocity

What this gentelman did was take a number of popular bullets, (several years ago) and tested each in the samestuff. I believe it was wet paper but am not sure and it was at fairly close range. His test was to shoot the bullet at low velocity and increased the velocity to measure expansion and weight retention. He graphically showed, (I have a picture chart) that as "velocity" increased, expansion increased, with some bullets to the point of fragmentation. In the majority of testing , weight retention was also reduced as velocity increased. I believe that he started at around 2600 and went up to 3000 or slightly more. Penetration was most significate at moderate velocities, with seveal bullets penetrating near 2 feet or more. Penetration dropped off at the higher velocities because the bullets were loosing their mass and spreading out more.
So realitive to this question all bullets expanded more rapidly at faster speeds

Here is my original post!!! My memory is still fairly good !!!
As most of you know we have a lot of spirited discussions regarding bullet performance and what works best on certain types of game and what our personal preferences are. I have mentioned a couple of times that I had some interesting research information documenting penetration, and weight retention. The research was done by Gary Sciuchetti from Mead Washington in the late 1990's. I purchased it through an outdoor magazine and its in the form of a narrative and a 2'x 3' poster which shows the actual bullets recovered. What Gary did was tested most of the popular bullets available, by the major manufactures at the time, His tested 180 grain ,.308 diameter bullets. He shot them at velocities from 1700 through 3100 fps at 100 fps intervals into road killed deer to start with, and then water soaked telephone books. He shot three of each manufacture at each velocity. He gave up his testing on deer because on the variables in shot placement. A bone strike for example gave a different reaction than one that missed the bone and it was to hard to insure that every shot was consistent. The water soaked telephone books gave him a consistent media to test into. The bullets tested were, A-Square Dead Tough, Alaska Kodiak. Allred TCL-SF, Armfield, Barnes X, Bitterroot Bonded, Blue Mtn SSP Bonded, Elkhorn FB, Federal Classic Hi Shok, Hawk .030 Jacket, Hawk ,035 Jacket, Hornady Interlock, Hornady RN, Jensen J26, Nosler BT, Nosler PT, Remington BP, Remington PSPCL, Remington RNSPCL, Seirra Gameking, Seirra Match king, Seirra Prohunter SP, Seirra Prohunter RN, Speer Grand Slam, Speer Magtip,Speer RN,Speer SBT, Wwift A-Frame, Trophy Bear Claw, Winchester Fail Safe 2700-3000, Winchester PP 06, -300 mag, Winchester Silvertip. This process must have taken months. Many of the bullets that we use today were tested and varified much of what I have seen myself and what others posted on the forum. I will try and summerize what I think would be the most interesting to forum members. Generally speaking at all velocities the all copper bullets out penetrated their counterparts with an average penetration of 21", at 3100 fps, however "the expansion channel created by these bullets is realtively narrow" they also retained 95% or their weight or more at all velocities. At 3100 fps the bonded bullets , Bitterroot, Speer GS, Trophy Bear Claw, Kodiak, Partition, Swift , A-Frame averaged 16" of penetration but varied significantly in weight retention. The Bitterroot retained 95%. The Partition, and the A-Square both retained 70% of their original weight. The Allred, Swift, and Blue Mountain Bonded, Trophy Bear Claw and Speer GS averaged 13'of penetration and all but the GS (at 60%) retained 90% of their weight. Something notable in the testing is that the Trophy Bear Claw and the Partition launched at 1900 Fps penetrated 64" and 59 " respectively. The Remington RN CL was a real suprise to me, it significantly out preformed the Remington PSP CL at all velocities including 3100 fps its performance was very similar to the Speer GS. It is readily apparent that bullets such as the Hornady Interlock, Sierrra Gameking, Sierra Prohunter, Speer Mag tip, Speer RN, are designed for velocities up to 2800 fps. The Winchester PP and Silvertip do well up to 2900 . The Sierra Matchking fragmented at all velocities and while penetration was good up to 2600fps (16") at 2700fps it only retained 30% of its weight. The weight retention on all bullets (except the copper which already retained 95% at 3100 fps) was increased as the velocity decreased. For example the Hornady BTSP Interlock, penetrated 11" and retained aprox 40% of its weight at 3100 fps, but at 2700 fps it penetrated 13" and retained 60% of its weight.
I hope you find this interesting and usefull and that I presented it so that it is readily understood. Its a lot of data to try and explain in writing but a very worthwhile endeavor by the author.

 

[nvbroncrider]

I can see a bullet not expandingand penciling though an example of this is an A-10 Warthogs 30mm rounds. They enter the tank and expend there remaining energy pinballing around. I could also see a closed tip tungsten or bronze alloy round doing the same. And the reason for best penetration at moderate velocity is because you have optimised not only weight retention but your not expanding to much to shed weight and create a large wound channel that disappates energy at a higher weight which leads to less penetration.

 

[caribouhunter]

I've had great succes so far with the scirocco in my 7 wsm and 300 RUM
From my limited experience they do internal damage like crazy, and weight retention is impressive. This experience you are talking about seems to correlate with this.
13" penetration means really good expension happened quite fast, and 90% weight retention
Tells the story on its construction.

The only bullet i recovered from my 7wsm (shot at a running deer, bullet entered right side ham and was found in the hide on the opposite side about in the middle of the ribcage) has doubled it's frontal diameter and weighted 142.8 gr
Out of the original 150. Internal damage was great.

 

[1Shot]

The problem was not that the 175 gr bullet was going too fast to expand on a deer. The problem was the bullet was constructed too tough regardless of the velocity to expand properly in something as lightly constructed as a deer. That BIG 175 gr heavy CONTROLLED expanding bullet did not meet enough resistance to expand properly. If it had been shot into something the size of an elk which it was designed for then the bullet would expand more because it was meeting resistance longer. So bullet construction does have a lot to do with it. My buddy had a 7 STW for a while and used 120 ballistic tips in it for deer. At close range, inside 100 yards, if he hit a shoulder it would not get into the vitals but would literally blow the meat off the shoulder. Same bullet at 500 yards slowed down worked perfectly going through both shoulders with a golf ball size exit hole. It is all about bullet construction plus terminal velocity and resistance met.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

As for a warthog round, sure they have a muzzle velocity over 4000 feet per second, but they are also a discarding depleted uranium sabot. Just a slightly different bullet construction then the standard hunting bullet.

 

[Guy Miner]

This has been a very interesting discussion gentlemen. Thank you!

I questioned if a hunting bullet had expanded in 2005, when I shot a mule deer in the ear, with a 100 gr Barnes TSX, from my .25-06. The bullet exited the off-side eye, and there was absolutely no indication of expansion. On the other hand the buck was dead as a doornail, instantly.

About 25 years ago I shot a 140 pound wild hog with a 180 gr Nosler Partition from a .300 Win mag at only about 40 yards. There was about a .30 cal hole right through the heart, and a very quick drop. The big bullet, even driven hard, wasn't expanding very fast. Like most Partitions, it exited. I do wish I'd been able to recover it.

Other than that, I've seen bullets expand faster when driven harder. With the Nosler Partition, somewhat similar to the Swift A-Frame in question, I've seen some fairly small exit wounds, but significant internal damage. In these cases I believe the bullet expanded quickly, and shed a significant amount of material inside the animal, before the exit.

Terminal ballistics is fascinating stuff - and I don't know that everything is a hard and fast rule. It's tough for me to believe the "too fast to expand" argument, but... Strange things happen.

Overall, I think all we can do as hunters is to place a good bullet where it counts.

Regards, Guy

 

[nvbroncrider]

As for a warthog round, sure they have a muzzle velocity over 4000 feet per second, but they are also a discarding depleted uranium sabot. Just a slightly different bullet construction then the standard hunting bullet.

Just something I thought I'd throw out let people think about and just kinda fits the discussion.

 

[Elkman]

So who won the argument????? Did I miss that part?

 

[DrMike]

So who won the argument????? Did I miss that part?

Good point, Bill. Yeah, let's hear the final results of the poll! :grin: