A tale of old powder.

[ShadeTree]

Still don't know what's wrong with it, just know this particular can is getting thrown out. I got a decent amount of different kinds of powder in the old metal canisters. That old powder produced some outstanding groups with both 150's and 180's with the model 70 and IMR 4350 that was in those old cans.

Got a new box of Speer hot cor 150's so I decided to see how the Springfield liked them as they shoot lights out in the model 70 and also loaded a couple for the model 70 to double check since the ogive measured .025 back from the older speer's. Just seated .025 farther out so I was still .040 off the lands on the model 70 and figured I be good to go.

Shot the Springfield first......it shot a group that measured 2 and 5/8", I thought wow, it sure doesn't like that setup. Shot the model 70 next and it was worse yet shooting a 3 1/2" group! Honestly I didn't know the model 70 was even capable of shooting like that. It's an easy sub moa gun with numerous loads and the stuff it likes it will put them at a 1/2" and under. And it LIKED that speer load before hanging right at 1/2" and sometimes under. I was completely befuddled when I left the range.

Only thing I could think of is I started my last can of old powder. It looks fine, not dry or dusty looking at all. Smells okay, I thought? But I bought a new can of IMR 4350 and it's definitely stronger smelling. Loaded up 3 for the springfield, and a couple for the model 70 with the new powder same as I did for both before. Bingo. The springfield now shot in the 8's, and the two I put downrange with the model 70 were back to the tackdriving that gun routinely shows with that load.

No clue what is wrong with that older powder....none. I don't see how 4350 if that's what it is, could be that far off older or not, but it's getting pitched pronto.


Springfield group.



Model 70 doing what it does with this load. And all else the same except a different can of powder shot 3 1/2." I can't make this gun shoot anywhere close that bad if I close my eyes and randomly put my finger on a book load.

 

[SJB358]

Could be just a different lot of powder so you’re getting a different pressure. It’d be interesting to chrono them and see the difference, if any.

 

[ShadeTree]

Could be just a different lot of powder so you’re getting a different pressure. It’d be interesting to chrono them and see the difference, if any.

That's the only thing I could figure Scotty, is that it is producing a way different pressure, and if I had to guess it's low pressure as the cases and extraction in both rifles showed zero signs of any kind of high pressure. But I can't see just a different lot of powder being that far off. There must be something chemically wrong with the powder and burn rate to produce results that far outside of what I can rely on with the model 70. It's getting chucked.

 

[SJB358]

RL19 used to be notorious for that. Used to happen all the time. Buy 1lb and do load work and buy another lb the load would fall apart. Check the speed and itd be several 100 FPS off.

Finally stick with 8 and 5 lbers and life has been easier.

 

[ShadeTree]

RL19 used to be notorious for that. Used to happen all the time. Buy 1lb and do load work and buy another lb the load would fall apart. Check the speed and itd be several 100 FPS off.

Finally stick with 8 and 5 lbers and life has been easier.

Not a bad idea to go with the bigger cans for sure. Could be that simple, I can't say, just never ran into any kind of a big swing before with 4350. Probably went through 4 cans of that old powder before this with no problems, and I suspect the man this powder supply came from that most of that powder is from the 80's. So that new can of powder is 30 yrs newer but put the model 70 right back to what it liked with the other cans of old powder.

 

[1Shot]

So the full story is you got this "old powder" from someone that bought it in the 80s? Was it previously opened? Thus you have no idea actually how it was stored. It can look, smell etc. OK but if it was stored in high heat or allowed to get really cold like freezing at some time it can effect it's burn rate. It could have also had a small amount of other powder accidently mixed into it if it was previously opened. I have a bunch of IMR 4895 that was recovered from pulled down military 06 ammo probably made in the 50s and 60s. It has been stored correctly and it shoots almost identical as brand new production across the chrno and accuracy results. It actually shoots better than between some different lots of other powders I have used over the past 40+ years.

 

[ShadeTree]

So the full story is you got this "old powder" from someone that bought it in the 80s? Was it previously opened? Thus you have no idea actually how it was stored. It can look, smell etc. OK but if it was stored in high heat or allowed to get really cold like freezing at some time it can effect it's burn rate. It could have also had a small amount of other powder accidently mixed into it if it was previously opened. I have a bunch of IMR 4895 that was recovered from pulled down military 06 ammo probably made in the 50s and 60s. It has been stored correctly and it shoots almost identical as brand new production across the chrno and accuracy results. It actually shoots better than between some different lots of other powders I have used over the past 40+ years.

Not just someone, but someone I knew well and reloaded with often back in the late 80's real early 90's. I know how he stored it but not how his widow did prior to me getting it, but however it was, it was all stored in the same box and none of the other 4350 acted like that. Same with the 4064 and others I used, no problems. Who knows, but it's gonna be lawn fertilizer now.

 

[350JR]

Interesting and of interest to me personally.

A different mfg and powder but I found some IMR4064 that was stashed back in a box of books (no clue why) that I've been moving around for DECADES.

Looks ok, no clumps or discoloration. Smells just like a newer can. Planning on loading some medium power loads for the 7mm Mauser and give it a go sooner or later.
I've what's considered "better" powder for the 7x57mm but 4064 gives usable velocities in light to med weight bullets, IMO.

Not sure exactly how old this is but I've got a general idea since I can only recall using that powder in a particular rifle I had. If human, it could easily have grandchildren so.........I'm hesitant and will go at it with great care.

Knowing I BOUGHT IT new and had this box inside all these years gives me SOME confidence.
God Bless
Steve

 

[Elkman]

I still have two unopened cans of IMR -4064 and 4350. As I don’t load either any more I need to get rid of it, or pass it to someone who uses it. I also two pounds of newer IMR - 4350 that could go.

 

[ShadeTree]

350JR, In all likelihood if it looks fine and smells fine, it will be fine, just like every other can of that old stuff I've used. This was an oddball for whatever reason I doubt I'll run into again. I've pitched stale powder before, but this one didn't have those signs. When compared to new powder it did smell less potent, but by itself it didn't smell stale or flat, and it certainly didn't look bad.

 

[SJB358]

I still have two unopened cans of IMR -4064 and 4350. As I don’t load either any more I need to get rid of it, or pass it to someone who uses it. I also two pounds of newer IMR - 4350 that could go.

Bring them in Oct. I’ll use them.

 

[truck driver]

I still have two unopened cans of IMR -4064 and 4350. As I don’t load either any more I need to get rid of it, or pass it to someone who uses it. I also two pounds of newer IMR - 4350 that could go.

Bring them in Oct. I’ll use them.

Nothing like free powder, especially hard to find powder.

 

[1Shot]

Not just someone, but someone I knew well and reloaded with often back in the late 80's real early 90's. I know how he stored it but not how his widow did prior to me getting it, but however it was, it was all stored in the same box and none of the other 4350 acted like that. Same with the 4064 and others I used, no problems. Who knows, but it's gonna be lawn fertilizer now.

Sometimes these head scratchers just happen. I store my powder in an old non running refrigerator and have for years. One day I open it up and the metal cans and the plastic bottles that have metal lids were all VERY rusty. Now I was just in this not three weeks earlier and there was absolutely no rust. I took everything out and found that it seemed that the worst of the rusted stuff was on just one side of the refrigerator. In the back was an old plastic bottle of AA3100 and the sides were pushed out a little. I opened it up and there was just a ball of swelled up looking powder in it. All I could figure was that there was some sort of chemical released from a deuteration of this powder that caused metal to rust quickly. I pitched the AA3100 cleaned up the rust as best as I could off the cans and being a pack rat I had some empty plastic powder bottles saved so I used them to put some of the powders from the cans in labeling them really well with all the information including lot numbers. Have not had any rust problems since. That AA3100 was probably about 25 or so years old and was about half full. I used it when I went through my 7mm Rem mag faze. Could about fill a case stick any 139 to 160 gr bullet on top and it would put them in the same hole at 100 yards with great velocity. Problem I had was I could shoot a deer perfectly in the vitals and they would run 100 or more yards before going down. I was hunting in bean fields in north east NC that was surrounded by jungle and swamp and if a deer ran out of the field it was very hard to trail up and find. Discovered the 25-06 BANG FLOP end of story. :grin:

 

[Elkman]

Bring them in Oct. I’ll use them.