Accubond

[Oldtrader3]

They killed 60 million buffalo with Sharp's .45-70's through .45-110's. Yet you say that my modern 9.3x74R with a 286 gr Partition at 2300 fps will not kill them? I personally find that hard to believe? Please tell me why a 9.3x74R which is much faster than a Sharps's rifle will not kill a buffalo when the 9.3 was used to kill elephants?

 

[bullet]

They killed 60 million buffalo with Sharp's .45-70's through .45-110's. Yet you say that my modern 9.3x74R with a 286 gr Partition at 2300 fps will not kill them? I personally find that hard to believe? Please tell me why a 9.3x74R which is much faster than a Sharps's rifle will not kill a buffalo when the 9.3 was used to kill elephants?

+ ONE! Yes so would I like to know since Barnard also known by the Shangaan speaking tribes of Mozambique as “Bavekenya” (translated means the man that swaggers when he walks) his primary weapon of for taking elephant and buffalo was a German built Mauser in 9.3

 

[nvbroncrider]

I have no experience in taking buffalo but a friend of mine used to raise them and sell hunts for them on his ranch in which he required his clients to have a minimum of a 7mm and had them shoot them behind the ear as he had a few bad experiences. I can't give you any other details but they are tough critters.

 

[andrewctillman]

Oldtrader and bullet,

I know a fellow in Canada who took his favorite 9.3 bison hunting. He used his Africa load for it (a heavy and slow Rhino) and was very disapointed, as I knew he would be. Sure it will kill them, just like the Indians on a pony did with an obsidian head projectile point. Just not humanely or quickly. I diont know if either of you have hunted in Africa with your favorite calibers, or hunted bison here, but modern bonded bullets have really changed everything we think we know about hunting. They stand up to alot of velocity, and American bison react to a fast medium bore in a way that they dont at 458 WM velocity or a small bore at HV. Just a fact. If you are shooting a 7mm - 300, NVbroncrider had the right idea. (Behind the ear). If you are shooting a 9.3 class low to medium velocity ctg a heavy FMJ through the skull head on (as in elephant hunting) would be far preferable to any SP and a body shot. I avoided head shots because there was alot of value in the undamaged bleached skulls. After trying both, I would not let anyone shoot my bison with black powder or bow and arrow. Buy yourself a tag. They are good eating. Mild but distinct flavor and low fat.

 

[Oldtrader3]

An awfully lot of American Bison were killed with the Trapdoor Springfield load for a .45-70. That load was, if I remember correctly, about 1300 fps with a 405 gr lead bullet. The 9.3 is .366 diameter with a 286 Partition or a 250 gr Bonded AccuBond at about 2500+. Not much different than a .404 Jeffrey which killed many African Big 5 animals.

I have not hunted Africa and am too old now. However, I have killed cattle and horses, who were down, and a .45-70 will settle their hash, tout suite. I also have no way of knowing what bullet your friend used on Rhino's but he may have used a 215 grain Norma? Many, many German West African's would disagree with you on the 9.3 cartridges. Rhino's also are even more lethargic then Bison and probably react about the same.

 

[andrewctillman]

Oldtrader,

The bullet was a bonded core solid base Rhino made in South Africa.

He did not kill a Rhinocerous. (Endangered or protected depending on species).

The 35 Whelan and Whelan Improved was effective on bison for me, and if you push a 9.3 to those velocities it should be effective. Just dont down load it or use too heavy of a bullet.

As I said, bison react strongly to a combination of bullet diameter and velocity in a way they dont with a slow large bore like a 45-70 or .458 WM, or a HV small bore (30 and less).

Dont know why, they just do.

They are not horses or domestic cattle. You can kill those w a 22 magnum rimfire. Dont try it with a bison bull!!!

Just because you can kill a bison with a 45-70 does not mean it is humane or there are not much better ctgs for the job.

 

[salmonchaser]

Trying to figure out if it was you or your dad I met and did some business with over in Athena in the early to mid 80s. Almost went to South America on an adventure with that Andy.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Oldtrader,

The bullet was a bonded core solid base Rhino made in South Africa.

He did not kill a Rhinocerous. (Endangered or protected depending on species).

The 35 Whelan and Whelan Improved was effective on bison for me, and if you push a 9.3 to those velocities it should be effective. Just dont down load it or use too heavy of a bullet.

As I said, bison react strongly to a combination of bullet diameter and velocity in a way they dont with a slow large bore like a 45-70 or .458 WM, or a HV small bore (30 and less).

They are not horses or domestic cattle. You can kill those w a 22 magnum rimfire. Dont try it with a bison bull!!!

Just because you can kill a bison with a 45-70 does not mean it is humane or there are not much better ctgs for the job.

"Rhino" in that sentence was a descriptor and not a noun for we who are not South African, had you written Rhino Bullet, it would have been clearer to we who don't get out much anymore!

Short of a Ma Deuce, I don't know what would be humane for a Bison? I have killed downed cattle and horses with a 1911 Colt .45 Auto, 250 gr FMJ between the eyes which did not knock them down. Several just locked their knees and looked at me, until I shot them again. I was an Army Medic and Medical engineer for 40 years and have been a successful hunter for 60 years. Please don't tell me that I did not shoot these animals properly to hit the brain?

 

[Guy Miner]

Andrewctillman - I've long contemplated a hunt for bison. Since you have considerable experience in killing them, I'd appreciate your input:

1. Am thinking I'd use one of my .375 H&H rifles with either a 270 or 300 gr Nosler Partition, loaded to max velocity. Yes, 270 gr, I've got a stash of old ones made before Nosler switched to 260 for their "light" .375 bullet.

2. Recommended shot placement? That's a big critter with a somewhat different anatomy than the mule deer I normally hunt... Not sure where the most effective shot placement is.

Thanks! Guy

 

[andrewctillman]

Guy,

perfect rifle for the job.

I also have some of the original (lathe turned) noslers in 270 and 300 grain if you need a few more. (After 35 years, I sold my 375 recently).

The 250 grain North Fork might be a good choice at 2,900 fps. (The 250 grain Bitterroot was my favorite).

"Hunts" vary widely from just stand there and shoot them in the first cervical vertebrae to finding one holed up in the bottom of a canyon in some timber and making a body shot like an elk.

There are books you should look at to study the spine placement. I dont know if The Buffalo Book is still available but I would start there, The spine slopes down from the shoulders then up again. I shot most of mine in the neck, severing the spine. Which is why the lighter weight medium bores (.338, 358, .375) work so well.

Ask your land owner what a typical range is. Shot placements for me would be; #1 Spine from side-on, #2 the X between eye and ear from front-on, #3 heart keeping away from the shoulder.

Best of luck to you.

 

[SJB358]

Man, I'd be in for a buffalo hunt. Talk about filling the freezer with prime meat!

I'd have to try a 45-70 though. I know it might not be optimal but for histories same I'd have to try. Well, maybe the Model 71 348 with the 250 Woodleighs as back up.

 

[andrewctillman]

SJB,

If you hunt bison with a lead bullet I would suggest that you cast it hard and go for penetration rather than expansion.

Neither a 54 maxiball (400 grain as I recall?) or 12 ga slug would perforate a young bulls neck. They both were recovered greatly expanded underneath hide which is thick and elastic even on a one year old.

Ought to work better on quartering shot for sure.

I ground most of my meat up into hamburger since I was usually shooting older animals. Delicious flavor and heart healthy red meat. dont let your butcher add beef suet to it. If its too lean you can always add some oil of your choice when you are ready to cook it.

When Jeff Cooper tried out the new 376 Steyr on bison which was loaded with relatively soft 270 grain Hornady spire point, his friend "cowboy" Clint Smith backed him up with a 45-70. I told Jeff that maybe he had that backwards. We had a good laugh about that.

 

[SJB358]

Thank you Andrew. I have a couple bullets I'd like to try on a buffalo. I have some Beartooth 425's that are mighty hard, and couldn't stop them in 15 jugs of water (1 gallon milk), or maybe some 300 grain PT's that have been dieing for a shot to perform. I also have one box of the 350 Northforks for the 45-70... Just too many choices.

Thank you for the hint on the meat, it sounds delicious and would go a long way towards filling my freezer for the year!

 

[Oldtrader3]

Andrew, I have read that large, heavy ungulates like Bison have a very heavy bone matrix in their spines and that many, otherwise suitable larger caliber bullets will not penetrate the spines of Bison, Asian Buffalo, Cape Buffalo and the like. I guess that if you wish to take spine shots on these animals that you could use a solid of sufficient weight and sectional density to penetrate all of the heavy bone?

 

[SJB358]

Andrew, I have read that large, heavy ungulates like Bison have a very heavy bone matrix in their spines and that many, otherwise suitable larger caliber bullets will not penetrate the spines of Bison, Asian Buffalo, Cape Buffalo and the like. I guess that if you wish to take spine shots on these animals that you could use a solid of sufficient weight and sectional density to penetrate all of the heavy bone?

I know I'd like to give it a try though... I think for the freezer's sake I would look for a pure rib or neck shot in order to preserve as much meat as possible.

 

[andrewctillman]

Old Trader,

The soft lead big bores penetrated the spine but did not perforate the hide. Just penetrating the spine paralyzed the poor beast, but did not kill them. Which is why I much, much prefer a fast bonded medium bore which kills instantly and humanely.

You dont need a FMJ, just more velocity.

In 45-70 I vote for the 350 grain North Fork and plenty of powder!!!

 

[Oldtrader3]

I am with you on the Northforks!

 

[sask boy]

Scotty that 35 Newton would be another great calibre for the Bison hunt.
I sure hope you get an opportunity at that hunt in the near future :wink:. Would enjoy a good story or 2 with lots of photos!!

Blessings,
Dan

 

[SJB358]

Oh yeah. The Newton is doing well. It's earning it's spot.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Scotty, how do you make? Acquire or otherwise get brass for the Newton? Can you still get it commercially? If so, what does it cost per case?