Accuracy Diff with primers.

[FOTIS]

Never had them shoot for me in any caliber.

What load with the RL-17? Velocity? accuracy?

 

[truck driver]

Ok guys here is the question.

Has anyone ever seen a notable difference just by switching primers and leaving everything else alone on a given load? I know velocity can vary a bit but I am specifically looking for accuracy difference. Not magnum to standard but within the same class.

What say you.

Yep when I was working up loads for my 35 Whelen Ackley Improved a change to Winchester primers marked for standard or magnum cartridges made a big difference in accuracy. Dewy's work with tuning the quick load data for my loads showed the difference and on range targets the performance was amazing how the groups would shrink.
Tweaking quick load from chronograph recordings finding the nodes using loads with the WW primer really turned it around.

 

[truck driver]

We will see.

I have the 250 TTSX loaded with various charges of CFE223, Lever evo, and different caps.

Fotis CFE223 is what I was loading in my 35Ackley Imp and the WW primers worked fantastic. CFE223 is a ball powder and hard to ignite and get uniform pressures, I don't think they are as hot as a magnum primer but they do make a difference with CFE223.

 

[Johnly]

A long, long time ago I was testing my favorite 308 mid-range load in my 40XB match rifle with different primers. Groups were generally at or under an inch at 200 yards, until I tried some Winchester LR primers and the groups swelled to over 2 MOA.

 

[George Foster]

In Feb. of "83 I tested Fed 210 against CCI 200's with the same load. The Fed 210 averaged 0.25 better than CCI's and I have used them ever since. I have shot the Fed 210 and Fed 210M and never seen much difference in group size.

 

[FOTIS]

Thank you for the input guys

 

[300WSM]

Ok guys here is the question.

Has anyone ever seen a notable difference just by switching primers and leaving everything else alone on a given load? I know velocity can vary a bit but I am specifically looking for accuracy difference. Not magnum to standard but within the same class.

What say you.

Well....
I can say I got a difference between federal gold medal match magnums grouping better than Rem 9 1/2m and WLRM...

I can't say this was across multiple platforms as it was one particular platform but I can also say that it might be better in other platforms for this particular load if I compared.

 

[TXbaldhunter]

I never really noticed much difference between primers,but 308 Win is the smallest case I load for.I weigh every charge on my ammo, consistency improves accuracy.I know in some of my load work up,I have seen loads one grain or more difference,still shoot in the same group.I think you can get the same thing with different primers if your shooting cartridges with larger case volumes and larger bore sizes.Smaller cases and smaller bores sizes,I think that is where you probably see the greatest difference.Another thing to keep in mind is,how close are you to max pressure.At max pressure,little things make a big difference.

 

[300WSM]

I never really noticed much difference between primers,but 308 Win is the smallest case I load for.I weigh every charge on my ammo, consistency improves accuracy.I know in some of my load work up,I have seen loads one grain or more difference,still shoot in the same group.I think you can get the same thing with different primers if your shooting cartridges with larger case volumes and larger bore sizes.Smaller cases and smaller bores sizes,I think that is where you probably see the greatest difference.Another thing to keep in mind is,how close are you to max pressure.At max pressure,little things make a big difference.

I agree with some of this and some...there is no way to really know.

One thing on your one grain difference shooting the same group could be...
"could be" that grain is irrelevant because it and maybe other grains weren't being burned before the bullet exits the bbl.
Thus it would have no bearing on the group.

Your quote on the max pressure and changes making a small difference...
While that can be true it can also be unknown what max pressure is. We have the books and the inTRAnet to tell us what a recipe will yield pressure wise but...
In our weapon, barometric pressure, etc...etc..
We might not actually be at max pressure.
Being at max pressure and being over max pressure are two hugely different things.
I sure don't have the equipment to measure actual pressure aside from what I am told or read in a book.

I am curious about something..

You mentioned about consistency...
How far do you go to achieve consistency? If you can think it there is a tool made for it all in hopes of consistency.
How much case prep are you doing before the final loaded product?

I have mixed feelings on some of that..

 

[TXbaldhunter]

I agree with some of this and some...there is no way to really know.

One thing on your one grain difference shooting the same group could be...
"could be" that grain is irrelevant because it and maybe other grains weren't being burned before the bullet exits the bbl.
Thus it would have no bearing on the group.

Your quote on the max pressure and changes making a small difference...
While that can be true it can also be unknown what max pressure is. We have the books and the inTRAnet to tell us what a recipe will yield pressure wise but...
In our weapon, barometric pressure, etc...etc..
We might not actually be at max pressure.
Being at max pressure and being over max pressure are two hugely different things.
I sure don't have the equipment to measure actual pressure aside from what I am told or read in a book.

I am curious about something..

You mentioned about consistency...
How far do you go to achieve consistency? If you can think it there is a tool made for it all in hopes of consistency.
How much case prep are you doing before the final loaded product?

I have mixed feelings on some of that..

As for consistency,I don't go to extremes,just a few basic things I do.What I do though,is keep my brass segregated by the number of rounds fired,same length and headstamp.I like to anneal after the third firing.That helps a lot because it keeps the neck tensions near equal as apposed to a mixture of brass,some being worked hardened and some being soft.Even bullet ogives can vary from lot to lot,changing the distance to the lands.That too could cause a change in velocity,especially if your loading really close to the lands.Weigh each charge and use same powder lot.Getting back to primers,some powders are harder to ignite than others.I remember the only time I experienced hang fires.I was doing some fire lapping on a rifle.It was a 300 Win Mag and I was using a starting load of 65.0grs of Reloader 22.I was using a CCI 200 LR.I had used a Winchester Large Rifle primer with 69.0gr of Reloader 22 and it was only about 15fps lower than what I got with WLRM primers.The CCI 200's gave me several hang fires and one that failed to fire.After a hang fire,then you have a fail to fire,it makes you wonder how long to wait before ejecting the round.When I got home I pulled the bullet and the powder was black and sooty,but none of the powder had ignited.I had used these primers with IMR4350 without any issues.I don't know,maybe the double based Reloader 22 just needed a hotter primer to ignite it or maybe this particular box of primers were just weak,it was also using a LR primer in a magnum case.

 

[jmad_81]

I did an accidental experiment with this a few weeks ago. I had a good load for my 22CM pushing a 77gr TMK with a BR2. I loaded up 50 more and accidentally used a 210M. I had developed a load that consistently would do a 5 shot .5-.7 MOA group with a bit larger velocity SD than I wanted, but it shot good. When I realized what I had done I kind of freaked out. I ran to the range to see how bad I had screwed up. I proceeded to shoot the best 5 shot group of my life and had a velocity extreme spread of 16.5 fps.

 

[300WSM]

That doesn't surprise me.

Federal gold medal match primers seems to be the best...

At least that's been my experience and other shooters in my crew some of whom do the 100 yard bench rest with ppc stuff.
Hand loading right there at the match...type of matches

 

[Blkram]

I did an accidental experiment with this a few weeks ago. I had a good load for my 22CM pushing a 77gr TMK with a BR2. I loaded up 50 more and accidentally used a 210M. I had developed a load that consistently would do a 5 shot .5-.7 MOA group with a bit larger velocity SD than I wanted, but it shot good. When I realized what I had done I kind of freaked out. I ran to the range to see how bad I had screwed up. I proceeded to shoot the best 5 shot group of my life and had a velocity extreme spread of 16.5 fps.


View attachment 25107

A happy accident!

I know that many have noted differences in accuracy variance when changing primers over the years...both when going to a hotter primer, such as the Federal, and when going to a "cooler" primer such as Winchester, CCI and/or Remington. I have switched once and a while...but do not recall recording variances in accuracy from just switching primers, As I believe that I also changed other components and/or seating depth too.
I now have some CCI primers for my 204 Ruger, but otherwise have pretty much stuck to Federal and Winchester primers over the years, and primarily use Winchesters in my lever action cartridges and Federals in my bolt action cartridges. Although a quick review shows that I am using Winchesters in my 300 WSM, 338-06 and 416 Taylor. (Edit: I forgot to mention that I have used Winchester primers mostly in lever action cartridges as I found that I was trying to duplicate as close to Winchester factory ammo performance by sticking to Win brass and primers, and only changing powders and/or bullets for better performance. And that I have usually found very good performance with Federal factory ammo, so that I have stayed with this similar practice with bolt action rifle cartridges. I have been lucky in that my initial attempts were usually successful.)

DrMike will probably have more empirical data recorded that he can share on this topic, as his load development is much more scientific in his practice and record keeping than mine (although I am attempting to accomplish his standards!).

 

[TackDriver284]

Once a got a great load and felt like tweaking with it for giggles, I would change primers around a bit, and I have seen some little pattern changes stretching or narrowing by .25 - .5 MOA @ 100. Primer changes is the last thing I seldom do, but most of my work ups I have been happy with was after I was done with seating depths or powder increment changes. Most of my primers I have been using was with BR2 or BR4 with standard cartridges and CCI 250 with magnum cartridges. I still have a 2,000 primer stash of Fed 210's Match that has not been touched yet.

 

[grry10]

I've not seen a noticeable difference in the accuracy of loads when switching between Winchester WLR and Federal 210. The same with WLRM and 215 when loading for my 7mm RM.