Annealed & Non-Annealed Brass?

[ElmerThud]

Does anyone notice a different POI of brass that has been anneald, than once fired from new brass, that hasn't been annealed yet - with identical loads?
I have certainly found that there is, also that it's somewhat significant.
What are your views?

Everything as close to identical as possible.
Shot at same time on range while testing/checking loads. Anneald shot to zero and newly loaded once fired un-anneald approx 1 1/2" high.
Barrel properly cold at start of each 3 shot group. Same make of brass.
All brass fired in my rifle from new. Close attention to detail with brass prep in all cases.
Same batch primers and identical charge, bullet and seating.
Bullets all crimped with Lee FCD, so as near even neck tension as possible.
All close & tight groups, but POI difference.

 

[truck driver]

I'm not an expert at reloading but I would think you are seeing more spring back from the brass that isn't annealed so you have less grip with it. Unless you are shooting lead bullets a semi auto, lever or pump action I would stop crimping my loads and try that to see if there is a difference.JMO

 

[Elkman]

I have never thought to check. I always weigh my brass and keep it together in lots of 20 and are all reloaded, annealed, sized, primed at the same time. I have probably never shot new brass and old brass in the same shot string. Interesting however. Could there have been another factor?

 

[TackDriver284]

I never have annealed before. I just use a whole batch of 100 pieces of virgin brass before I plan to resize. I mark each batch after each session, I put all brass in zip lock bags and mark number of times fired. After I use all new brass fired once, then I resize, trim, prep brass to be fired again, and follow the same path until I fire all 100 pieces, and then round two is next. I never mix brass from lot to lot or mix brass that has been fired more than the other. Maybe soon I'll add the Annealeez to my reloading bench. It's the missing link.

 

[ElmerThud]

I was 'bringing on' fresh brass and by chance tested the un-anneald alongside the anneald.
The results made me wonder if maybe the case volumes were different, with the anneald cases having been fired many times, the internal volume changed with thinner case wall, resulting in the differing POI's.
Just wondered if anyone else had noticed similar.

The cases have been anneald three and four times from the respective boxes I checked.
The anneald were bang on zero, but although tight at .494 & .510 groups, the un-anneald rounds printed 1 1/2" higher on the paper.

 

[SJB358]

I was 'bringing on' fresh brass and by chance tested the un-anneald alongside the anneald.
The results made me wonder if maybe the case volumes were different, with the anneald cases having been fired many times, the internal volume changed with thinner case wall, resulting in the differing POI's.
Just wondered if anyone else had noticed similar.

The cases have been anneald three and four times from the respective boxes I checked.
The anneald were bang on zero, but although tight at .494 & .510 groups, the un-anneald rounds printed 1 1/2" higher on the paper.

I'd bet it's just the neck tension ET. I don't mess with serious load work until brass has been fired once and annealed. I'm pretty anal and will anneal after two firings just to keep it as close as I can.

 

[ElmerThud]

I'd bet it's just the neck tension ET. I don't mess with serious load work until brass has been fired once and annealed. I'm pretty anal and will anneal after two firings just to keep it as close as I can.

When I've fired all twenty rds Scotty, I'll anneal the cases & hope they drop back into line with the norm.

 

[5shot]

I have found that annealed cases have very low neck tension. Where ever the brass is, is where it stays. When you seat a bullet in the neck, the brass expands to bullet diameter and stays there. If you pull the bullet you can seat it back with just your fingers.

I would bet, as others have said, that it is a neck tension issue.

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[kraky1]

Interesting post....... any idea if there is a velocity difference between the two... it would seem your Barrel tuning has changed?

 

[longrangehunter]

ET, many years ago I went to help out Kenny Jarrett of Jarrett Rifles Inc. in his reloading room for the guns he made. His protocol was to take 12-15 pieces of new brass, and shoot for group 3 shoots, go back into the reloading room and retest, with the same 12-15 pieces of brass!

But here's the deal, I'd just resize, and test, over and over again until a tune was found or the brass was spent. Once a tune was found, he'd ask that you take 9 pieces of new brass and shoot three, 3 shot groups for the gun, and those targets went to the guns owner, along with the data to produce the load, or loads since a lot of them would have two different loads with two different bullets. Most were a Nosler BT, and the Nosler Partition, or whatever would produce the desired results.

I remember asking him a lot of questions, and why not do this or that, and in the end it was a waste of time in his opinion! He had a dumpster full of spent brass in the back of the parking lot plum full! After my week there I realized a lot of what is or can be done at the bench, is a waste of time even with a super accurate gun. A Jarrett Rifle never left his shop unless they were capable of producing under 3/8" three 3 shot groups.

But that doesn't mean that's cast in stone, or what you're seeing isn't real ET. I sometimes have to remind myself about what Kenny taught me. Keep it simple.

OK, I'll need to test what you're seeing, and if I can find the same results?

 

[ElmerThud]

I have found that annealed cases have very low neck tension. Where ever the brass is, is where it stays. When you seat a bullet in the neck, the brass expands to bullet diameter and stays there. If you pull the bullet you can seat it back with just your fingers.

I would bet, as others have said, that it is a neck tension issue.

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I hear what you say, but please remember, I have said that all rounds are crimped with a Lee FCD.

 

[ElmerThud]

Interesting post....... any idea if there is a velocity difference between the two... it would seem your Barrel tuning has changed?

I did not have the opportunity to check MV of these loads over a chrono kraky1

I reckon I won't now get that chance with this current box of reloads. Pity!

 

[5shot]

The crimp has no strength with the annealed, so it has no affect.

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[longrangehunter]

ET-

The one thing on my mind was trying to remember if the POI was always the same since I was loading for group while working with Kenny Jarrett? I can't imagine the final tune wasn't that way? I do remember the scope, a 40x Leupold with a fine duplex that I could hit a fly with on the target backer. I rarely had to rezero that scope for each new gun I stuck it on if my memory serves me well but it was well over a decade ago.

Interesting though, and on my PRS guns once I have a tune I don't change the zero once it's established.... although there has been a few times I've questioned whether or not my POI had changed and I have a had to add .02-.03 mils off my dope card when going to different places to compete because of the DA changes during the day.

I'm sizing brass now, and I've heard from PRS members they don't even clean their primer pockets, neither did I while helping out Kenny, but I still do FWTW. I did not anneal my brass this time though, and I have a very expensive Bench-Source machine that does make quick work of the job.

Good luck with your testing ET, and if the snow stops flying I'll anneal some brass and see what my own observations are?

 

[SJB358]

ET-

The one thing on my mind was trying to remember if the POI was always the same since I was loading for group while working with Kenny Jarrett? I can't imagine the final tune wasn't that way? I do remember the scope, a 40x Leupold with a fine duplex that I could hit a fly with on the target backer. I rarely had to rezero that scope for each new gun I stuck it on if my memory serves me well but it was well over a decade ago.

Interesting though, and on my PRS guns once I have a tune I don't change the zero once it's established.... although there has been a few times I've questioned whether or not my POI had changed and I have a had to add .02-.03 mils off my dope card when going to different places to compete because of the DA changes during the day.

I'm sizing brass now, and I've heard from PRS members they don't even clean their primer pockets, neither did I while helping out Kenny, but I still do FWTW. I did not anneal my brass this time though, and I have a very expensive Bench-Source machine that does make quick work of the job.

Good luck with your testing ET, and if the snow stops flying I'll anneal some brass and see what my own observations are?

I'll be looking for that Kevin.

 

[69gto]

Longrange hunter, I don't clean primer pockets either, I quit doing it 25 or 30 years ago and never noticed any difference. I just load for hunting no competitive shooting.

 

[ElmerThud]

Thanks for your input longrangehunter.
I almost never adjust the scope on my rifle, zero'd @ 200yds with my pet load, but have noticed different POI from newer un-annealed brass loads (everything otherwise identical) from those established annealed cartridge loads, for which my rifle/scope is set up.

I am curious to know if others who anneal have found this to be the case also.

With new brass I'd fireform it, then F/L resize to firedcase headspace dimension and reload the case three or four times before annealing.
However, I notice that until the case is annealed the POI does not align (shoots high) and I must make an allowance for the discrepancy until annealed.
Cheers, ET

 

[truck driver]

Thanks for your input longrangehunter.
I almost never adjust the scope on my rifle, zero'd @ 200yds with my pet load, but have noticed different POI from newer un-annealed brass loads (everything otherwise identical) from those established annealed cartridge loads, for which my rifle/scope is set up.

I am curious to know if others who anneal have found this to be the case also.

With new brass I'd fireform it, then F/L resize to firedcase headspace dimension and reload the case three or four times before annealing.
However, I notice that until the case is annealed the POI does not align (shoots high) and I must make an allowance for the discrepancy until annealed.
Cheers, ET

Working in a aluminum smelter for 15 years allowed me to become familiar with how heat effects metal and the homogenizing process changed the molecular structure with in non ferrous metals and the heat allows the molecules and alloys to flow together in brass and aluminum causing it to soften and changing the grain of the metal allowing it conform to different shapes with out breaking when it goes into an extrusion press.
Take a piece of steel flat bar put it in a vise and bend it, you will notice that if you don't go past center it will spring back some but when heated it stays put.
With your new brass you have basically work harden brass unless it's Lapua which is annealed before it is packaged for sell so you are still getting some spring back even with a crimp die but not with the annealed brass since it is soft and stays where it is stretched or swagged.
Take a new piece of brass and put it in a{ hand case trimmer }and trim it, then put an annealed piece in the trimmer and trim it, you should feel a difference where as the annealed brass cuts easier than the new brass.
It's been over 20yrs since I worked in the smelter and can only remember the basics since I have forgot most of the mathematical formulas. ( besides they were trade secrets) :grin:
Sorry for the long winded post but I hope it helps.

 

[5shot]

It stays put, but can easily be moved and won't spring back until sufficiently work hardened again. That I think is the issue. A crimp on work hardened brass may spring back a bit, but it will still be quite strong, and will resist being straightened out, the annealed crimp will not.

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[kraky1]

I'll add my experiences.....
I agree about how annealed brass is easier and smoother to trim and it has less neck tension after seating.
I also find it somewhat difficult to keep straight if you are using an expander ball and it can even be taken offline pretty easy during seating.
I use the tru tool to correct concentricity as found by my RCBS gauge.... after using it for a couple of years I have come to find I'm getting a pretty good feeling for when necks are soft and when they are hard. Probably the easiest brass to move in virgin form is Norma.... and some of the toughest is Lapua even though it is annealed from the factory... it must have something to do with the alloy and not the annealing. Norma seems to stay fairly soft through quite a few fire rings .....I don't find that to be true with American-made brass. Sometimes but not always Federal is like this also.
What I like about the tru tool is that you are modeling at the neck and not at the bullet where youre going to disturb neck tension... but the added benefit is like I say I get a pretty good feeling of when I need to do some annealing when I use the tool.