Annealed & Non-Annealed Brass?

[ElmerThud]

Just to make clear,
I don't have any issues at all with regard to any of my loads in respect of their accuracy & ability to group consistently within 1/4" MOA @ 100yds.
Crimping rounds with the Lee FC die makes a difference in providing very low ES. So no issue with consistent MV.
Anneald brass or not, with my pet load & the 110gn AB, 3120 fps MV is normal, never less & usually + 10-14 fps.
Concentricity is not a problem either, case neck/body pretty good @ MAX +/- .0005" achieved by a polished expander ball, the expander ball retracted so it just goes through the neck & back out - no decapping, an O ring under the f/l die lock nut & sizing to headspace dimension.
Bullet seating good with no greater than .002" run out.

No, I'm curious about why un annealed brass results in the bullet printing a different POI?

Maybe the neck tension is different, but past chronoing hasn't ever indicated a significant enough difference in MV at all, so I don't think a different MV is causing the change.
For the reason above, I am not yet quite convinced it's down to neck tension or crimping.
But, it must be something.

 

[longrangehunter]

Longrange hunter, I don't clean primer pockets either, I quit doing it 25 or 30 years ago and never noticed any difference. I just load for hunting no competitive shooting.

I don't disagree with you about, but I do it using a primer pocket uniformer that cuts them all the same depth, and at the same time removes the carbon left in the primer pockets FWTW.

 

[longrangehunter]

Well ET whatever it is POI is very important, so it would be great to figure out what is causing that issue? I have yet to see the Sun, only snow, and now that has turned to rain for what appears to be well into the next week!

I've sized and primed 200 pieces of Lapua 260 Rem. brass for two long range precision tactical competitions and I still have another 100+ to do. If I see the Sun, I'll anneal some brass and see what happens ET.

 

[RiverRider]

I agree about how annealed brass is easier and smoother to trim and it has less neck tension after seating.
I also find it somewhat difficult to keep straight if you are using an expander ball and it can even be taken offline pretty easy during seating.

Kraky, do you have any idea how this happens during seating?

 

[kraky1]

I think there is probably more going on during seating that a lot of people realize and it really gets magnified if you don't have an exact match of your seating stem to your bullet profile.....as well as unexplained gremlins we run into.
I use a lot of Lee collet dies which leave the brass very very perfect but you still have those pesky unexplained rounds that have run out after seating.
I recently sorted two boxes of Nosler 280 AI Factory ammo for a friend...... Nosler ammo is usually amazingly straight from the factory but this stuff was absolutely terrible with run out of up to 20 thousands in a lot of cases.
When I went to correct the ammo on the true tool i couldnt believe how ez the necks were to move. If Norma made that brass it was still quite a bit softer than when I usually find on Norma ammo All I could come up with for an explanation for the terrible run out was that the necks were moving too easily during bullet seating.

 

[RiverRider]

Interesting, thanks for the reply. I'll be pondering that.

 

[kraky1]

I will admit I'm not an expert annealer but I have done some of it. I don't use Templilac.... But I don't get the necks red hot or get that silver look to them.... I chuck my shells in a lee Universal holder and spin them in a drill an use the count method. My goal is the lapua look with a discolored look just below the shoulder. Probably five to six seconds with my Benz omatic on low....seems to work.
When I am done reloading I check every loaded round across my rcbs Gauge and I find I have a little bit of trouble with that stuff that's annealed..... but it's also very easy to correct. I'm a Weatherby guy and have loaded shells for those guns for 20 years and I have to say that the Norma brass that makes Weatherby ammo is probably the most awesome stuff as far as neck tension goes I've ever run into for factory cases. Seems like every bullet seats with the EXACT same feel and tension.

 

[waveslayer]

Several things happening here. It's your neck tension throwing off your groups. Annealed brass will have the brass brought back to its original state. Over time it hardens, then cracks.

Using once fired brass and Virgin brass will cause a fluctuations in pressure, which is velocity.

I load virgin brass .4grains of less powder to make up for the less case volume. Once it's fired the case expands to match my chamber. I did this by testing with my labradar. Or using QL

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

 

[ElmerThud]

That would be interesting for you to test LRH, I hope you get sun soon. We have sun here in UK for the last few days & warm too. But it isn't June yet, so anything can happen for the next couple of months.

Annealing is such a simple procedure I do it in small batches regularly after every three firings is my norm. It keeps everything to do with the brass so useable and therefore loads are extremely consistent. But, I only anneal the brass three times then chuck it.
It really is a pain starting virgin brass off again!

I don't have any significant run out issues either with F/L sizing or bullet seating. But, I don't load so many rounds these days either and have time to spend on being super careful.
I use an O ring under the lock nut of the sizing die & can pinch the die up or down to get very exact.
I also ensure the expander rod & ball are exact centre in the die/case, only allowing the expander to pass just through the case neck.
Decapping is a separate operation prior to sizing.
The net result is around Max .0005" case neck/body run out which I reckon is brass thicknes variation.

For bullet seating run ot does not exceed .002" at any time & I use both RCBS Competition seater and Redding micrometer dies.
Neither one is better than the other, but the RCBS is more convenient with the side window to insert the bullet.
Used on my rockchukker, the redding die needs more space in the press with a long .25-06 cartridge. I should have changed my press years ago for a Forster, but other than limited space it's damn good really & will last all my life.

 

[longrangehunter]

The Sun came out today but so did the wind even here in my little valley......

 

[TC260]

Does anyone notice a different POI of brass that has been anneald, than once fired from new brass, that hasn't been annealed yet - with identical loads?
I have certainly found that there is, also that it's somewhat significant.
What are your views?

As some of the others mentioned, sure sounds like a difference in neck tension. I'd get some 750 Tempilaq and get the annealing process under control. Recovery annealing will maintain your brass at more or less the same state as when it was new. Full annealing is excessive and undesirable IMHO and is causing the large change in performance you're seeing between new and annealed brass.