Barnes Performance, the picture say it all!!!!
- Thread starter Desert Fox
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DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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As I have stated on other occasions, I like Nosler and I use Nosler bullets. However, I have taken moose, elk, black bear, mule deer and whitetail with TSX bullets, and they have worked very well indeed. I appreciate POPs clarifying statement. I still find these pictures very interesting. I would expect nothing be great performance from the E-Tips I have loaded for my 270 WSM this fall, just as I have witnessed great performance from the TSX.
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- #23
Desert Fox
Handloader
- Aug 14, 2006
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There's no doubt that Nosler still leads the way in the accuracy and consistency department... at least in my experienced. They're still number one in my book with Hornady, Sierra and Barnes to follow in that order with Speer a distant last. Lately though with Kalifornistan lead ban forcing us to use lead free bullet, I began working more and more with Barnes bullet, and the result was nothing more than spectacular. A couple of weeks back while sighting my 300 Weatherby at our 500 meter range, a crow made a mistake in taking his leasurely walk right at range back stop. The 180 grain TSX did not show any mercy. I'm not sure which one impressed me the most. The Barnes bullet, or the Accumarks accuracy. That was more impressive than the first crow that succumb to my 6MM Remington, shooting the deadly accurate 87 grain V-Max a few years back, at 598 yards, since Barnes is a big game bullet, and not known for hair splitting accuracy. Maybe Barnes is on to something. Have you guys noticed the label on the boxes of their bullet lately? The yellow stickers says matched grade accuracy. Hmmm!
That is one thing I have never had any issues with, and that is getting reat accuracy out of Barnes. Plus, in my rifles, they have all liked the upper to max loads, which makes for alot of confidence in your hunting round, full power, with excellent accuracy. I would like to try out the 200gr TSX in my 358. I would rather use an AccuBond, but until Nosler puts something out us 358 and 350 Rem Mag guys can use, we either have to use the lead 225's or use the copper 200's. I can push a 200 right around 2600FPS with the 358, that makes for a hard hitting, fairly flat shooting combo. Scotty
DFox, Great shooting!
The problem w the X and TSX is that they do loose their X petals above about 2900 fps impact velocity in the small-medium bores, and much lower velocity in the big bores.
I would guess your TSX hit your big deer at around 2,900 fps?
Here is apicture of a 400, 450 and 500 grain X or TSX from my 450 Dakota at 2650 fps, 2,450 fps and 2,300 fps shooting into 5 gallon water buckets.
Because it is so long, the 500 grain turned over 180 degrees and traveled base forward, almost shearing off the two remaining X petals. the first two blew off while front on. the lighter bullets lost theirs front on.
Before he passed away, I compared many 416 Swifts from the late George Hoffmans collection of expanded bullets with those recovered from the water buckets and they correlated 90% for expansion and 95% for weight retention. The buckets also closely correlate to results using IWBA gelatin with bullets as different as a 55 grain FMJ at mach 3 and a sub sonic 9mm 147 grain JHP.
A great advantage of the Partition, lead soft point,and various ballistic tips are their incredibley large velocity envelope. From 3,200 or more down to half that is pretty impressive.
Still, very few of us have any business shooting over 200 yards, and that was great performance from both the shooter and bullet!
PS
In defense of the TSX, it is much less likely to smear your bore with copper fouling than the original X bullet. At least it was in my Dakota.
Andy
The problem w the X and TSX is that they do loose their X petals above about 2900 fps impact velocity in the small-medium bores, and much lower velocity in the big bores.
I would guess your TSX hit your big deer at around 2,900 fps?
Here is apicture of a 400, 450 and 500 grain X or TSX from my 450 Dakota at 2650 fps, 2,450 fps and 2,300 fps shooting into 5 gallon water buckets.
Because it is so long, the 500 grain turned over 180 degrees and traveled base forward, almost shearing off the two remaining X petals. the first two blew off while front on. the lighter bullets lost theirs front on.
Before he passed away, I compared many 416 Swifts from the late George Hoffmans collection of expanded bullets with those recovered from the water buckets and they correlated 90% for expansion and 95% for weight retention. The buckets also closely correlate to results using IWBA gelatin with bullets as different as a 55 grain FMJ at mach 3 and a sub sonic 9mm 147 grain JHP.
A great advantage of the Partition, lead soft point,and various ballistic tips are their incredibley large velocity envelope. From 3,200 or more down to half that is pretty impressive.
Still, very few of us have any business shooting over 200 yards, and that was great performance from both the shooter and bullet!
PS
In defense of the TSX, it is much less likely to smear your bore with copper fouling than the original X bullet. At least it was in my Dakota.
Andy
nomosendero
Handloader
- Apr 13, 2006
- 536
- 1
I experienced some poor expansion performance, excessive copper fouling & poor accuracy from some of the first X bullets. However, my experience with the TSX has been very good in every way. I will be trying the 168TTSX for my 300WM soon.
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- #27
Desert Fox
Handloader
- Aug 14, 2006
- 1,965
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nomosendero":4dtxvpjk said:
I second that. My experience with the TSX and TTSX is the same... less copper fouling. It's a far cry from X bullet of the old. It is also rare to recover this bullet from down games. I would much prefer to see the actual bullet picture recovered from the animal rather than those that were fired on wet newsprint, water jug or ballistic gelatin. I wish I have something to show from our last Safari but all nine bullet (8 from 375 and 1 from the 300) all were not recovered.
D Fox,
Here is a picture of 450 and 400 grain North Fork bonded solid base from buffalo at 2550 and 2750 fps. 82 caliber and 90% + weight retention.
The TSX blows off front end at about 2600 fps in 375 and about 2300 fps in 458.
I did recover the two NF's because they were bulging underneath hide on off side. (The 400 grain even made it into the off side leg bone). My PH did not care for the TSX, saying it was more of a solid than a soft point.
The TSX is seldom recovered since it is a wadcutter without X petals.
I prefer .82 caliber expansion to a flat nose wadcutter but in the big bores on big game it still works I guess!
I have a freind whose wife swears by the 168 grain TSX in 30-06 for medium sized game in Africa, and he even uses the 180 grain in his 35 whelan.
Andy
Here is a picture of 450 and 400 grain North Fork bonded solid base from buffalo at 2550 and 2750 fps. 82 caliber and 90% + weight retention.
The TSX blows off front end at about 2600 fps in 375 and about 2300 fps in 458.
I did recover the two NF's because they were bulging underneath hide on off side. (The 400 grain even made it into the off side leg bone). My PH did not care for the TSX, saying it was more of a solid than a soft point.
The TSX is seldom recovered since it is a wadcutter without X petals.
I prefer .82 caliber expansion to a flat nose wadcutter but in the big bores on big game it still works I guess!
I have a freind whose wife swears by the 168 grain TSX in 30-06 for medium sized game in Africa, and he even uses the 180 grain in his 35 whelan.
Andy
bullet
Handloader
- Dec 26, 2007
- 4,975
- 18
I do not like the Barnes TSX period and won't go into the last three deer I killed with it. Yes, they died that's all I can say. Just don't like them, but there are those who do.
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- #30
Desert Fox
Handloader
- Aug 14, 2006
- 1,965
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Thanks for the photo Andy.
There's no arguing there with that kind of performance from a bonded core bullet. Excuse me though for my ignorance since I never shot a Buffallo. From what I read, isn't it true that the solid bullet are a much prefered bullet for Buff rather than a bonded leadcore in case you take that frontal head shot on a charging animal? I had a lively conversation with a game warden in South Africa. He carried in his bullet carrier two types of bullet for his 458. One softnose lead core for lions and a solid for Buff and Elephant. The solid though was a round nose.
There's no arguing there with that kind of performance from a bonded core bullet. Excuse me though for my ignorance since I never shot a Buffallo. From what I read, isn't it true that the solid bullet are a much prefered bullet for Buff rather than a bonded leadcore in case you take that frontal head shot on a charging animal? I had a lively conversation with a game warden in South Africa. He carried in his bullet carrier two types of bullet for his 458. One softnose lead core for lions and a solid for Buff and Elephant. The solid though was a round nose.
Desert Fox,
You are being too modest. Nine one shot kills????? Wish I could say that!
As you know most PH's are a pretty traditional group of hunters, but the younger ones have grown up w premium bullets that are usually used by American hunters, and know that the old method of loading a soft point for first shot on buffalo followed by FMJ's as it runs away is not necessary anymore.
Myles McCallum was my PH in Zimbabwae and he got me to within 9 paces of my elephant. He was open minded and curious about the North Forks even though they were lighter and much higher velocity than normal.
Next time I will take my 375 improved and 300 grain Bitterroot's at 2,800 fps for buffalo and PG as I took the scope off my 450 and will use it exclusively for elephant.
Saeed al Makhtom has killed over 100 buffalo w a 375 x 404 using Barnes X or similar bullets and almost every one even at reduced velocity has lost its front end and the bullet tumbled. He is a great shot and head shoots them alot now but has so many bulets from body shots that you can say w certainty the 375 Barnes looses front end at normal ranges.
Premium bullets really have changed everything. The 375 is very effective now.
Few PH's have access to a steady diet of premium bullets like we do, they are just too expensive in Africa. And that is one reason they stick w FMJ and monolithic solids I think. Myles reloaded Woodleighs in his 416 Rigby and kept a few soft points for smaller stuff.
Unless you make a central nervous system hit with a FMJ it takes alot of lead to kill a buffalo. I personally dont consider it humane (or safe) to even use them, but I am in the minority there.
Amongst the bonded bullets, I would not recommend a lighter Swift or Woodleigh for a head shot on buffalo but all the others are stout enough for it.
If you shoot a North Fork, Swift, original (not Speer) Trophy bonded, Kodiak, Nosler Partition, or TSX for buffalo (or even the heavier Woodleighs) you really dont need a FMJ.
They are for elephant only.
Pictured the new 500 grain .458 Nosler monolithic solid and Partition recovered from 5 gallon water buckets. the Partition had more penetration than any 500 grain .458 I tested. No need for the solid really.
Andy
You are being too modest. Nine one shot kills????? Wish I could say that!
As you know most PH's are a pretty traditional group of hunters, but the younger ones have grown up w premium bullets that are usually used by American hunters, and know that the old method of loading a soft point for first shot on buffalo followed by FMJ's as it runs away is not necessary anymore.
Myles McCallum was my PH in Zimbabwae and he got me to within 9 paces of my elephant. He was open minded and curious about the North Forks even though they were lighter and much higher velocity than normal.
Next time I will take my 375 improved and 300 grain Bitterroot's at 2,800 fps for buffalo and PG as I took the scope off my 450 and will use it exclusively for elephant.
Saeed al Makhtom has killed over 100 buffalo w a 375 x 404 using Barnes X or similar bullets and almost every one even at reduced velocity has lost its front end and the bullet tumbled. He is a great shot and head shoots them alot now but has so many bulets from body shots that you can say w certainty the 375 Barnes looses front end at normal ranges.
Premium bullets really have changed everything. The 375 is very effective now.
Few PH's have access to a steady diet of premium bullets like we do, they are just too expensive in Africa. And that is one reason they stick w FMJ and monolithic solids I think. Myles reloaded Woodleighs in his 416 Rigby and kept a few soft points for smaller stuff.
Unless you make a central nervous system hit with a FMJ it takes alot of lead to kill a buffalo. I personally dont consider it humane (or safe) to even use them, but I am in the minority there.
Amongst the bonded bullets, I would not recommend a lighter Swift or Woodleigh for a head shot on buffalo but all the others are stout enough for it.
If you shoot a North Fork, Swift, original (not Speer) Trophy bonded, Kodiak, Nosler Partition, or TSX for buffalo (or even the heavier Woodleighs) you really dont need a FMJ.
They are for elephant only.
Pictured the new 500 grain .458 Nosler monolithic solid and Partition recovered from 5 gallon water buckets. the Partition had more penetration than any 500 grain .458 I tested. No need for the solid really.
Andy
Thebear_78
Handloader
- Sep 30, 2004
- 3,098
- 870
I have to agree with the performance of the 168gr TSX, I shot a moose last thursday with my 300 RUM and the 168gr TSX @ 3370fps. All three complete passthru, one thru the pounch blowing grass out the far shoulder, one thru the ribs, and the last from the right ham adn out thru the front of the brisket. All three had obvoius expansion and amazing penetration. Range was about 200 yards.
Don't get me wrong I"m a big beleiver in Nosler partitions and accubonds also. Anything sub 3000fps I always go Partition or AccuBond in heavier bullet weights, but for fast movers the TSX gets the nod. I haven't tried any of the Etip bullets but might think they were good for fast movers.
Don't get me wrong I"m a big beleiver in Nosler partitions and accubonds also. Anything sub 3000fps I always go Partition or AccuBond in heavier bullet weights, but for fast movers the TSX gets the nod. I haven't tried any of the Etip bullets but might think they were good for fast movers.
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,344
- 3,186
Andy":3r1wsiav said:D Fox,
Here is a picture of 450 and 400 grain North Fork bonded solid base from buffalo at 2550 and 2750 fps. 82 caliber and 90% + weight retention.
The TSX blows off front end at about 2600 fps in 375 and about 2300 fps in 458.
I did recover the two NF's because they were bulging underneath hide on off side. (The 400 grain even made it into the off side leg bone). My PH did not care for the TSX, saying it was more of a solid than a soft point.
The TSX is seldom recovered since it is a wadcutter without X petals.
I prefer .82 caliber expansion to a flat nose wadcutter but in the big bores on big game it still works I guess!
I have a freind whose wife swears by the 168 grain TSX in 30-06 for medium sized game in Africa, and he even uses the 180 grain in his 35 whelan.
Andy
Always admired them bullets. Accurate they would expand and penetrate.
If they only had a decent BC they would have it all.
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,344
- 3,186
Pop,
Bullet performance is alot more important to me than BC. :grin:
The modest ballistic coefficient of the North Forks and lead tip Nosler Partitions have never bothered me. As you know, 200 yards is a long shot on big game in Africa.
I shot an impala w my 450 at about 200 yards hitting it behind last rib and it still blew apart the heart on its way out the front end.
Hit 52 inch Kudu in right rear ham going away at 150 yards, made about a fifty caliber hole going in and exited neck.
A little bit more velocity would not have made any difference.
The 400 and 450 shoot very small groups at 200 yards. I think the NF has a 6 caliber ogive which makes it very streamlined for a 458. I chronographed them at 100 yards in 2005 (they were that accurate) and concluded that the BC of the heavy 458's is much higher than you would think from the bullet profile. The heavy bullets dont slow down as fast as the lighter ones!
I actually prefer lead tipped bullets for hunting to a ballistic tip, they seem to expand sooner.
NF has gone to a HP for their smaller bores. I have some in 7mm that are very accurate. Hopefully they wont change the 458!
Andy
Bullet performance is alot more important to me than BC. :grin:
The modest ballistic coefficient of the North Forks and lead tip Nosler Partitions have never bothered me. As you know, 200 yards is a long shot on big game in Africa.
I shot an impala w my 450 at about 200 yards hitting it behind last rib and it still blew apart the heart on its way out the front end.
Hit 52 inch Kudu in right rear ham going away at 150 yards, made about a fifty caliber hole going in and exited neck.
A little bit more velocity would not have made any difference.
The 400 and 450 shoot very small groups at 200 yards. I think the NF has a 6 caliber ogive which makes it very streamlined for a 458. I chronographed them at 100 yards in 2005 (they were that accurate) and concluded that the BC of the heavy 458's is much higher than you would think from the bullet profile. The heavy bullets dont slow down as fast as the lighter ones!
I actually prefer lead tipped bullets for hunting to a ballistic tip, they seem to expand sooner.
NF has gone to a HP for their smaller bores. I have some in 7mm that are very accurate. Hopefully they wont change the 458!
Andy
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