Best $250-400 scope?

[Guest]

I spent a number of years "out" of the scope buying market. When I re-entered rifle hunting after about a decade hiatus, I started looking through a lot of glass. Now, let me say that glass is a personal thing, and my eyes are different than almost everyone else's. But what I soon discovered is that I can buy equal glass to the lower line Leupolds, for less money, and I can buy better glass than the VXIII level, for the same money. Additionally, I've seen a high number of failures in Leupold scopes in the last decade, and QC issues in other Leupold products. From a failure rate standpoint, I've seen five or six Leupold failures in the last couple of years alone, out of maybe 20-30 Leupold scopes on rifles belonging to friends of mine. I only own one Leupold right now - a Vari-X II 2-7x28 that my dad put on his Browning BAR way back in about 1980 - and I'm starting to question it as that rifle has developed an inconsistency recently that I haven't fully diagnosed. My brother had to send in the Vari-X III from the 270Win my dad left him when it stopped holding zero a couple of years ago. Now, compare that with the single failure in the Zeiss Conquest line (out of at least 20 on rifles I'm "close to") and the zero failure rate among Bushnell Elites and Burris Fullfield II's, and Nikon Monarchs & Buckmasters. Admittedly, this is anecdotal, and the sample sizes on the last few nameplates are smaller (5-15 scopes of any one brand) but I personally own several of the Bushnell 3200's and have had absolutely zero incidents with any of them. With the 4 in my safe, based on the failure rate of Leupolds across my purview, I'd expect at least one issue. I thought I had one issue, but the scope holds zero and has taken game on two rifles now, so I'd say it's not a problem.

I think Leupold spent a long time building the brand, and was truly the best US glass out there for many years. I think they rested on their laurels too long, and have found themselves in a very competitive global market after the fall of the iron curtain, and are letting quality slip in an effort to maximize profits. Until the -6 and -7 scopes came out, they didn't have anything that competed with any of the higher end Euro glass, and even those are not running with the top end Swaro and Zeiss (Diavari) lines. The advent of the $400 3-9x40 Euro glass (US-assembled, of course) has really fouled Leupold's marketing philosophy of overcharging for their products because nobody could touch their coatings. Even Bushnell (formerly B&L optics) has come on strong in the last few years and become a real player with their Elite lines. (Their lower priced stuff leaves a bit to be desired, but it is functional from the Trophy level on up.) With the addition of the new Legend Ultra HD riflescopes - fully multi-coated and rainguard coated - the $200 scope market is getting more interesting by the minute. You just can't buy the same quality of sight picture in a Leupold until you get up around $400. It's just not worth it in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong here - I think Leupold is a fine brand with a storied history of being great. I just think they're making some poor decisions over the past 10-20yrs and it's coming home to roost with them now as new competitors push the envelope and innovate.

 

[alaska100]

I spent a number of years "out" of the scope buying market. When I re-entered rifle hunting after about a decade hiatus, I started looking through a lot of glass. Now, let me say that glass is a personal thing, and my eyes are different than almost everyone else's. But what I soon discovered is that I can buy equal glass to the lower line Leupolds, for less money, and I can buy better glass than the VXIII level, for the same money. Additionally, I've seen a high number of failures in Leupold scopes in the last decade, and QC issues in other Leupold products. From a failure rate standpoint, I've seen five or six Leupold failures in the last couple of years alone, out of maybe 20-30 Leupold scopes on rifles belonging to friends of mine. I only own one Leupold right now - a Vari-X II 2-7x28 that my dad put on his Browning BAR way back in about 1980 - and I'm starting to question it as that rifle has developed an inconsistency recently that I haven't fully diagnosed. My brother had to send in the Vari-X III from the 270Win my dad left him when it stopped holding zero a couple of years ago. Now, compare that with the single failure in the Zeiss Conquest line (out of at least 20 on rifles I'm "close to") and the zero failure rate among Bushnell Elites and Burris Fullfield II's, and Nikon Monarchs & Buckmasters. Admittedly, this is anecdotal, and the sample sizes on the last few nameplates are smaller (5-15 scopes of any one brand) but I personally own several of the Bushnell 3200's and have had absolutely zero incidents with any of them. With the 4 in my safe, based on the failure rate of Leupolds across my purview, I'd expect at least one issue. I thought I had one issue, but the scope holds zero and has taken game on two rifles now, so I'd say it's not a problem.

I think Leupold spent a long time building the brand, and was truly the best US glass out there for many years. I think they rested on their laurels too long, and have found themselves in a very competitive global market after the fall of the iron curtain, and are letting quality slip in an effort to maximize profits. Until the -6 and -7 scopes came out, they didn't have anything that competed with any of the higher end Euro glass, and even those are not running with the top end Swaro and Zeiss (Diavari) lines. The advent of the $400 3-9x40 Euro glass (US-assembled, of course) has really fouled Leupold's marketing philosophy of overcharging for their products because nobody could touch their coatings. Even Bushnell (formerly B&L optics) has come on strong in the last few years and become a real player with their Elite lines. (Their lower priced stuff leaves a bit to be desired, but it is functional from the Trophy level on up.) With the addition of the new Legend Ultra HD riflescopes - fully multi-coated and rainguard coated - the $200 scope market is getting more interesting by the minute. You just can't buy the same quality of sight picture in a Leupold until you get up around $400. It's just not worth it in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong here - I think Leupold is a fine brand with a storied history of being great. I just think they're making some poor decisions over the past 10-20yrs and it's coming home to roost with them now as new competitors push the envelope and innovate.

good post and I agree. The under 500 dollar market has gotten very competitive and the scopes are better at this level than they were at one time, and of course this is a good thing for us. Even recently, I feel Leupolds marketing department has had their head in their arse. Having said that, I must be one of the few that have had zero problems with their return and repair policy and I am VERY pleased with their VX6, of course we are over the 500 mark now and that is an entirely different discussion about scopes at that level. I am not a strictly leupold scope owner or user, but feel they have their good points as well as their bad points, hopefully since they are a U S company they will get their act together and reverse their marking share, with good products and decisions.

 

[35 Whelen]

Dubyam & AK100,
You guys have really summed it all up correctly, and hit the nail very squarely on the head. It doesnt matter how much any of us like a Leupold scope; as we all have had good luck with them . The fact is there is some very interesting stuff out there, and they better get the lead out, or I fear they will end up just like Redfield did......................
Here is an interesting link to look at on rating scopes that were compiled from thousands of actually surveyed customers to see how the public is rating the scopes currently that they sell at 4scopes.com . I was sorry they didnt have the Vortex line as it would have been interesting to see how they stack up by the actual public . So here is the link; view it for yourself, to see what thousands of end users, actually voted for! Pretty interesting survey compiled since 1999!
http://www.4scopes.com/customer_scope_guide.htm

 

[Titleist]

Buying glass and buying hunting scopes are two different things. The criteria for chosing a scope vary according to the user. Some scopes have good glass, but short eye relief. Some scopes are great in the near dark, but are heavy and expensive. Some scopes have a long product history, some are the newest "flash in the pan".

I want a scope that is dependable. For the price I do not think that a U.S. hunter can do better than a VX-3 2.5x8. I have never seen one fail, although I am sure that it has happened.

The brand bashing that is so popular by the internet experts is tiresome.

 

[Guest]

@Titleist - I respect your opinion. I sincerely hope you weren't referring to me as an "internet expert," though. I can assure you I have a safe full of rifles, and have worked on/with at least another three or four dozen of my friends' rifles over the years at their request. My assessment above is absolutely based in fact. None of the examples of failures are heresay; all are either directly observed at the range or reported directly (via first hand direct contact) from people I trust enough to hunt with. I won't argue over whether or not you should own a Leupold, but the facts are the facts.

@Alaska - To be sure I give complete clarity, not one individual has ever expressed a concern or complaint with how their problems have been handled by Leupold. The issues that have arisen have been corrected and the scope returned in short order. As a testament to the complaint I have regarding QC issues, not one of the repaired Leupolds has ever offered a problem since, to my knowledge. Did you have a warranty issue and send one in? I'm judging by your post that you did, and had no trouble with the return/repair policy. That mirrors the experience of all I've known who needed to send a Leupold in for service.

@35Whelen - The chart is interesting. I am not surprised by any of the ratings there, except perhaps the Bushnell ranking. I'd be willing to bet if you stripped out the Sportsman/Banner/Trophy lines, the ranking would improve dramatically. In many respects Bushnell has two separate optics groups - the "el cheapo" group and the Elite series group. The products of the two groups are night and day different, in my experience. I've not had a chance to wring out a new Trophy XLT yet, but I'd like to see how it stacks up. I was surprised to find out the Trophy is the best selling scope line in America. Affordability has its place.

 

[alaska100]

Dubyam & AK100,
You guys have really summed it all up correctly, and hit the nail very squarely on the head. It doesnt matter how much any of us like a Leupold scope; as we all have had good luck with them . The fact is there is some very interesting stuff out there, and they better get the lead out, or I fear they will end up just like Redfield did......................
Here is an interesting link to look at on rating scopes that were compiled from thousands of actually surveyed customers to see how the public is rating the scopes currently that they sell at 4scopes.com . I was sorry they didnt have the Vortex line as it would have been interesting to see how they stack up by the actual public . So here is the link; view it for yourself, to see what thousands of end users, actually voted for! Pretty interesting survey compiled since 1999!
http://www.4scopes.com/customer_scope_guide.htm

Interesting link, thank you. However, it is impossible to wonder how they obtained this information and it is unfortunate that even though they are a schmidt and Bender dealer they didnt include S & M in their survey. They also dont represent Swarovski and that might be why they were not included, like yourself wishing they had included Vortex, I was wishing they had included several others, besides the two I mentioned above.

Titleist, you may not have been referring to anyone specifically, but since I had posted just before with some unfavorable feelings about Leupold, please let me respond only on behalf of myself.

I like Leupold a lot. i am currently using a VX3, VX7, VX6. And personally I feel their warranty is one of the best, which includes turn around time. But they have also stumbled a time or two and I hope they recover and move on. The VX6 is a great first step back, it is what the VX7 should have been to be honest with you. Another fellow on a different forum, actually is now a part of this forum also ( C. Schutte ) was the first to open my eyes to the importance of good glass, and since then I have had the opportunity to use several scopes made by european companies. There are differences, are they worth the extra money, that is up to each individual, but I have found they are to me. Also, their are new and improved scopes on the market like minox and meopta that gives one even more quality options. Personally I enjoy the reviews and heads up--I might not agree with them or even heed their advise, but I appreciate reading their repots

 

[alaska100]

dubyam, sorry we were typing at the same time. I sent one back in that I had crushed and they sent one back to me with no questions asked and within 10 days from the time it left our house until I had it back

A relative has sent two of them back over the period of ten years and both fixed and returned, no charge and quickly.

We get good service from Swaro, but it takes much longer for it to return. S & M warranty is only for ten years and, only if it is a product failure.

Again I am not bashing or selling anything or anyone, but are experience with Leupolds service has been the best

 

[Guest]

Alaska, your experience with Leupold mirrors that of literally everyone I've talked to. The issue I have is the number of people who I know firsthand who know how good the warranty service is, is far too large in my opinion. Considering the number of scopes out there from each manufacturer, versus the number returned for service, Leupold appears (and that's all it is, appearance based on anecdotal evidence of 20-30 folks I personally know) to have a higher rate of warranty service than other comparably priced makes. I don't include BSA/Simmons/Tasco/etc. in that list. They are another story entirely.

To be sure, I like Leupold. They have made some great stuff. But currently, I can get Zeiss Conquests, Bushnell Elites, Minox, Meopta, and others that are equally as good or better glass/coatings/durability, for less money. Yes, the Conquest is rapidly leaving that list, but there's a close by shop that gets a lot of Zeiss demos and makes phenomenal deals on them, so I include those in my list. The others are certainly priced at or below the comparable Leupold price, and many of them are better glass/coatings/durability for the same or less money. At least that's my experience.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I realise that Leupold is a heavy favorite for scopes with many people. I agree with the survey to the extent of medium priced scopes and how they are rated, except I would not rate Nikon any higher than Burris, based on personal experience. For $400 you can not buy most any VX3 whereas you can buy a Minox which will be as good optically as the Leupold VX3 for less. If the new VXII is a better scope than the older VX-II, it might be worth trying.

I still own (3) Leupold scopes but I used to own (8) Vari XIII's and (2) VXII's. As they broke or wore out, I had the Leupolds rebuilt, sold them and replaced them with better optics. The VXII's are mounted on rimfires now. That may be the only time that I ever appreciated the high resale price of old (pre-2003) Leupold scopes (without MC4) that are still mirror images of updated ones. I have never been a fan of the Leupold erector system, at least not on their scopes that I have owned. Maybe the new ones are better? I would expect that the VX-6 is better.

Leupold's warrantee is very good and is widely loved by their users but at what cost? How much of COGS-overhead is warrantee and replacement of older scopes? Rhetorical question as Leupold is privately held, we will never know. The best $500-$600 scopes that I have ever owned are all Kahles scopes, no contest. I have two and wish that I had bought (8) of them even if they are a pain to send to Austria for warrantee (if I ever need it). Just thinking out loud.

 

[alaska100]

I realise that Leupold is a heavy favorite for scopes with many people. I agree with the survey to the extent of medium priced scopes and how they are rated, except I would not rate Nikon any higher than Burris, based on personal experience. For $400 you can not buy most any VX3 whereas you can buy a Minox which will be as good optically as the Leupold VX3 for less. If the new VXII is a better scope than the older VX-II, it might be worth trying.

I still own (3) Leupold scopes but I used to own (8) Vari XIII's and (2) VXII's. As they broke or wore out, I had the Leupolds rebuilt, sold them and replaced them with better optics. The VXII's are mounted on rimfires now. That may be the only time that I ever appreciated the high resale price of old (pre-2003) Leupold scopes (without MC4) that are still mirror images of updated ones. I have never been a fan of the Leupold erector system, at least not on their scopes that I have owned. Maybe the new ones are better? I would expect that the VX-6 is better.

Leupold's warrantee is very good and is widely loved by their users but at what cost? How much of COGS-overhead is warrantee and replacement of older scopes? Rhetorical question as Leupold is privately held, we will never know. The best $500-$600 scopes that I have ever owned are all Kahles scopes, no contest. I have two and wish that I had bought (8) of them even if they are a pain to send to Austria for warrantee (if I ever need it). Just thinking out loud.

charlie

You are correct about the warranty being included in the price. I know for sure that Swaro add s to their price to cover their warranty and it would be my guess that they all do to a certain extent. those that are a public company of course you can see this figure in their balance sheet and like you say companies that are privately owned you can not. But I think this is true on everything even vehicles that now go as high as 100000 mile warranty, as something is figured into the cost of the car when sold. Each person must decide if that warranty and the cost of it, even if it is hidden, so to speak, is worth it to them. I know that for a long time I didnt have many scopes and the knowledge that I could get one replaced or repaired quick from Leupold definitely entered into my decision when buying a scope. I mentioned this to you before, but I also agree with the Kahles statement. We have one that was built before Kahles became a branch of Swaro and it takes a licking and keeps on ticking--good scope.

 

[Oldtrader3]

This Goodwill that companies attempt to convince their customers that they are somehow getting for free is never free. It is always cooked into the overhead associated with product costs. I have nothing against good warranties certainly and will avoid buying certain optic brands which do not have these safeguards. What is important is that customers realise there is no free lunch. There is a reasonable balance there somewhere between service levels and warranty protection limits. The better the optic, it seems, the more important the warranty coverage and the less chance that you will ever need to use it based on component quality, engineering and build integrity.

 

[35 Whelen]

Just for the fun of it I have a customers gun here in the shop, at the moment for repairs, and it has an new Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x36 [ Stock # - LEU66330] on it, So I just ordered a 2-7X32 Vortex Viper, and will be doing a little comparision on them as soon as the Viper gets here. That is a test that will be on a $400 Leupold against the lower priced Viper so it should be interesting to see how those two stack up! Stay tuned for that one as soon as we can get a chance to try them both out first good evening I get to try them both :wink:

 

[Titleist]

Deleted - because I was being just a bit harsh, probably for no good reason.

 

[DrMike]

Earl,

I conducted similar tests about two years ago, and concluded that it was a draw at that time. I'll be looking forward to see what you conclude.

 

[35 Whelen]

That sounds great Mike and I bet we will find close to what you did. Just got this gun in so thought I would check out the VX-3 for fun . Going to bring it in tonite and see how it stacks up agaisnt the Conquest. I need to PM you about the testing on that new barrel on your Whelen! Not sure if you have had a chance to fool with that yet???

 

[DrMike]

Half inch groups with 225 TSX. Velocity is a little less than I anticipated, but then, I'm not pushing the pressure yet. I'm projecting c. 2750 fps with 225 Nosler PT using a variety of powders. I'm quite pleased. It won't kill any more dead than before, but it is somewhat more accurate. Consequently, in line with this thread, it is wearing a Kahles 3-9 X 42 which is just about right for it.

 

[35 Whelen]

Now that is impressive Mike. I bet you are happy with that and you now can fool around with those 310gr Woodleighs and give us an update on that "Bear Load" what an awesome combo that would be rolling along at 2500fps................. dont mention Kahles to me; as I am still upset that I didnt grab a few of them when they were so reasonable . That was probably the best deals on scopes that have ever been offered in my time! I have never seen a Kahles scope I didnt like! :lol:

 

[DrMike]

I have three Kahles, and I'm sorry I don't have ten or more. They were an excellent bargain, and they are great scopes.

 

[SJB358]

I will jump on the wagon. I am am/was a Leupold man through and through. Couldn't tell me anything outside of them. I still like a few of their model's cause nobody makes scopes in that same size or magnification for the same money... I had the 2.5x8 VX3 on my 338 and swapped it to the Minox 2x10. It is a clearer scope and has more magnification. There was nothing wrong with the Leupold but for me, the Minox is better...

They all make some great scopes. Not sure what I am going to do next for a few of my rifles that don't have glass. I am kinda liking the Zeiss Conquests out there, and the Swaro Z3's. Not sure what'll end up with, but I imagine it'll be one of them along with another Minox for the 264 probably..

All said, my best friend put a VX3 CDS 3.5x10 on his new 300WSM. Very nice set up and right now, Leupold is the only game in town with a CDS set up, from the factory.. I wouldn't be too bad off using it for my hunting either. I have a VXIII 3.5x10 on my 270WSM and 7WSM's and won't likely replace them anytime soon. They work pretty decent...

 

[ROVERT]

I got a pretty decent deal on a used VX3 for my 35 Whelen. I'll let you guys know how it stacks up to the other scopes I have in this price range after I get to do some testing with it... to my eyes anyway.