Body Wall Brass Thickness. Plus? Minus?........or who cares?

[350JR]

Still and probably always, the novice in wildcat round creation I run into questions that have multiple answers, and as what seems to be constant on the web, contradicting opinions.

I would appreciate input here from you all on the subject of the good, bad and the ugly concerning how thick the brass is on the BODY wall of a round.

Correct any misconceptions I may have with your own findings/opinions????

1. Strength. Some say that body wall thickness does NOT help with higher max chamber pressure. My confusion HERE is .....then why build a thicker wall with more material that had to cost more? Well HAD to isnt correct. QUALITY of the brass has to effect things. That is a subject all of it's own.

2. Capacity. Surely thicker body walls eat up the capacity a little.......but how little? I DO know that even on a lil bitty 22 Hornet, the mfg of the brass has a large effect on capacity BUT that is comparing a very small capacity to begin with so 1 grain is relatively, a "larger" change. THEREFORE.....does such a change produce similar results in bigger rounds :arrow: percentage wise?

In my head several possibilities could result from different body wall thicknesses.

If stronger, but smaller in capacity, does the end result produce a "wash"...just using higher pressure and a faster powder on most rounds or is there a capacity range that it isnt effecting much?

Before the avalanche (that I may be out of my mind expecting lol) starts, let it be known that max capacity is NOT mandatory for my needs/uses/builds......but since starting a cartridge...info I'd like to look at. This is just something I am a bit "iffy" about and for 60 years one question has always plagued me while doing anything......

"How's That Work?????" (Nope......boss telling me "cause I said so" don't work so well. :roll: )

Specifically, so we don't get too far out in the universe of it all, I'm especially interested in the 65(ish) grain capacity and 63-67?? K psi range:

CAN one change the max pressure safe to use per round using the mfg of the parent round WITH thicker walls? Or does the loss in capacity cancel out any "gain"?

Who has split what round stem to stern and looked at the body wall? Pictures?

Is there a formula calculating average wall thickness change in a given round going by weight?

How come Nosler brass cost so much? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Am I a PIA or not? :twisted:

God Bless
Steve

 

[russ808]

Steve,
If I remember right a couple of guys here cut some brass up and posted them.
I do use some military 308 brass and they are thicker then most comerical and I load them accordingly, watch for pressure signs. As for the rest of your questions, thats way over my pay scale. I know that there are other here that can help you on that.
Russ

 

[300WSM]

The change in case capacity could cause a change in pressure. But I believe the change would be ever so tiny that I do believe it would all fall under safe user psi ratings.

Using a 308 as an example...a thicker walled case could drop the capacity but not very much for sure. Not enough to make one case of mfg (a) using powder (a) hold 45.0 grains, yet case mfg (b) still using powder (a) holds 48.0 grains. Of course all things being equal with powder, charge, bullet, etc I don't think the change is enough to fall out of safe operating pressure. There just wouldn't be enough of a change in the charge.../wall thickness change to matter.

maybe I am way off here too on this...but it is an interesting question

 

[350JR]

I read several threads on cartridge walls and know some rounds (and mfgs) DO have quite and increase in thickness compared to others, or a least what some guys state they find. I believe the RUM cases are one of them. Ill find out shortly.

There has to be a REASON such was made.

If at all possible, I HOPE to make two cartridges (or more) indentical in exterior measurements but with wall thickness from one end of the spectrum to the other, work loads in both "sizes" and compare notes on end results using the same powder(s) and bullets for comparison in these loads and what powder charge in each gives that.

While I dont EXPECT a radical difference perhaps the end results of what is "max" in each will enlighten me a bit OR the difference will be ever so slight and I wont really notice much.

I guess, simply put, I would like to find out if the thicker brass allows for higher pressure use........or not but since I'm sailing in waters Ive not sailed in other than with the mentioned 22 hornet where there IS a definate difference.......I might be simply exercising my curiousity and gaining zip in information.

For me, wildcat rounds can be just created to fit whatever specifics you want in length and caliber and you just get what you get like I did with the 350JR or , like in this case, I can let my imagination run out of the box a bit and just experiment with smaller things like wall thickness, neck length, shoulder angle etc.

I was kind of HOPING one of those employed with Nosler could give me a little inside scoop about the brass they have made (or make?) to their specs concerning the why's and wherefores of such unless that is privileged information.

Unless I'm mistaken? Nosler brass does run a bit thicker than the norm? Most the gang here have more first hand knowledge than I.

It will take awhile and several other personal "issues" have priority (dang it!) but my jets are fired and while capacity limitations in such a shortie wont allow this project to produce any kind of new Wonder Round that sweeps the world with awe....I for one am going to enjoy the project.

After all, THAT is the entire point of it all anyway. FUN! There is quite a "whole" in the 375 rounds velocity wise from the 375 Win to the next largest comparng factory rounds. I hope to end up in there somewhere...in a short action.

If I looked, I bet there exists one now....but this one will have a bit of "me" in it. :wink: Slightly lower in capacity from the 375 JDJ but in a higher pressure case.....it'll work for my uses.

God Bless!
Steve

PS.....Anyone wishing to DONATE a model 7 Remington SS CDL in any of the SAUM rounds for a donor rifle.....IM NOT PROUD! :lol:

 

[JD338]

Steve,

Case wall thickness will have an effect on case capacity and pressures.
If you change brass, best to drop down a few grains and work back up to ensure you are with in the pressure spec.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

What I want in brass performance and dimensional charachteristics is consistancy. Consistancy of thickness and consistancy of brass hardness from batch to batch and then I do not have to worry about case failure due to improper annealling or drawing.

I have about given up on Remington brass and Winchester is it seems getting worse quality as time passes. Both have a lot of neck splits and cracks even in new brass indicating poor Quality Plan adherance at plant locations.

I but Lapua, Nosler and Norma brass, despite their higher cost which is at least offset by their longer in service case life. I do not know why premium brass is so expensive but I am sure there is a reason. Quality control and using a quality plan is not cheap.

 

[300WSM]

Question for old trader...

Do you think that Norma, Lapua, and Nosler would have as many issues if they sold as many pieces of brass as Rem and Win.

I can tell you that I've seen faults with the above three..mind you it isn't as frequent as rem and Win but its there. Norma, Lapua and Nosler make up about 10 percent combined of the brass sales or use. Actually it has to be quite less...maybe more in the 1-2 percent range. Rem and Win use that brass to load its own Core Lokt ammo and Winchester super X stuff...and that amount of brass is just off the charts.

Thoughts?

 

[Oldtrader3]

It is hard to say what the premium brass companies would do if the had to scale up their production. As in any process, if you lose control of the process, you are going to have problems. My guess is that you don't continue to get $1.50 apiece for brass unless you control the quality.

Lapua and Norma have always been pretty consistant in quality and know their processes pretty well. I do not think that much would change with those two. Nosler is an unknown. Thy are still a small company.

 

[350JR]

Same caliber but off subject.

Looking at this build, installing an after market barrel is pretty much mandatory. Finding a factory take off in this bore would be a biotch, and so much would be cut off to setback and rechamber I'd have a stub (comparing that my preference of 22 inches)

12 is the ONLY rifling twist around for .375?

SEEMS just a bit fast for the lower end weight bullets. I dont even see much option from a lot of barrel makers in this caliber.

I'm sure it works since done for a couple generations but....just doesn't seem "normal" compared to other calibers that have options.

I've never read much about opinions on any rifling being TOO fast but......there has to be a reason that slower rifling are available, somehow are more optimum?

On the bigger bores, not being any kind of expert, it seems 1-14 seems more optimum in my head.

My 358 cal barrel is 1-16 since that is how that factory barrel came. Works fine as long as I dont go with heavy, long bullets, but Ive no intention to anyway. Since in the same weight ranges and velocities (roughly)...I just found it a bit ODD that only 1-12 is pretty much mandatory for a .375 bore.

God Bless
and ........thanks to those offering info.
I realize this is an "odd" build of little interest to others, so "Thank You".
Steve

 

[Oldtrader3]

It depends. When I started running a medical plant, they made about 50 million assemblies a year with a defect rate of one bad assembily in 10,000. We scaled the plant up and installed a quality plan and laser inspection machines to assure the our assemblies had the attirbutes which made them good. After this program was implemented, we made 300,000,000 assemblies a year with one defect in 10,000,000 assemblies. That is why I said: it depends. This medical product assembly was one heck of a lot more complicated than a brass case is by a factor of probably 50. Higher volume gives you higher revenues which gives you the freedom to innovate and control quality better for higher volume. That is, if controlling quality is a priority?

In some companies, Remington for instance, it is not and them will probably never make good product without a manufacturing and management cultural change. The Manager (if you can call jhim that) who ran Remington into the ground, now runs Cabela's in case you were wondering why Cabela's has gone downhill recently?

Does that answer your question 300 WSM?

Steve, I believe that .375 H&H's have always had 1 in 12 barrels, since 1912. Why change something that works. Almost all bullets tha are used in the .375 are semi spitzer and therefore are not really critical in barrel twist anyway. Probably the only person who has worried about .375 barrels not being 1 in 14 inches in the past 75 years in you, Steve.

 

[350JR]

Probably the on;y person who has worried about .375 barrels not being 1 in 14 inches in the past 75 years in you, Steve.

Probably so. I get that a lot on many things I think about. :mrgreen: Not really "worried" but more curious as to why one particular caliber doesn't even have options for another rate is all. Always trying to learn. Never enough info for me. Thanks!!!

Compliments of our member TRIC, I have some RUM brass in hand and a couple B&M "starting brass" for their rounds. Gives me ample brass to wrap my head around this as an option. Special thanks, TRIC, for your kindness and generosity. Id be more than happy to pay whatever it all is valued at to you. Packaging was .......WOW. I dont think that brass could have got even a scratch if USPS ran over it! MUCH appreciated!

No clue if the 325 WSM brass is comparable but the gunsmith wants me to grab some to compare and feels there would be "less brass to move around" with it so Ill find some to compare all the aspects to this RUM brass down the road.

Tis BIG STUFF compare to my 350JR!!

God Bless!

 

[300WSM]

It depends. When I started running a medical plant, they made about 50 million assemblies a year with a defect rate of one bad assembily in 10,000. We scaled the plant up and installed a quality plan and laser inspection machines to assure the our assemblies had the attirbutes which made them good. After this program was implemented, we made 300,000,000 assemblies a year with one defect in 10,000,000 assemblies. That is why I said: it depends. This medical product assembly was one heck of a lot more complicated than a brass case is by a factor of probably 50. Higher volume gives you higher revenues which gives you the freedom to innovate and control quality better for higher volume. That is, if controlling quality is a priority?

In some companies, Remington for instance, it is not and them will probably never make good product without a manufacturing and management cultural change. The Manager (if you can call jhim that) who ran Remington into the ground, now runs Cabela's in case you were wondering why Cabela's has gone downhill recently?

Does that answer your question 300 WSM?

Steve, I believe that .375 H&H's have always had 1 in 12 barrels, since 1912. Why change something that works. Almost allbullets tha are used in the .375 are semi spitzer and therefore are not really critical in barrel twist any way. Probably the on;y person who has worried about .375 barrels not being 1 in 14 inches in the past 75 years in you, Steve.

Yes and no. Of course in the case you list above ..which I feel is an apple and orange comparo...the quality control has to be spot on,,,does it not? Moreover higher volume does equate to higher revenue. But if you go higher volume you aren't doing it without a higher demand. At this point this can lead to the "what can we get away with in a safe manner" ...and there is no doubt that Rem and Win brass is safe first and foremost. Dimensions vary but not at the expense of safety and overall function. The brass in its current form is perfectly fine for 90 plus percent of the shooters and the platform they are using. Or the shooters ability as well.

 

[Oldtrader3]

The only experience that I have had with large variations of brass thickness in cases was with the .308 Winchester. Military brass was about 5% lower capacity (higher weight) and loads had to be adjusted accordingly with Lake City-mIlitary brass versus commercial Winchester Western brass or Remington brass.

I do not spend a lot of time comparing brass maufacturerers of cases for reloading but I am starting to pay more attention now to weight and thickness.

Some things that I have learned lately:
1. Norma and Nosler Magnum cases for the .340 Weatherby weigh the same and have precisely the same weight distribution over two box of 25, or 50 cases total.
2. Nosler and Norma .257 Roberts cases also weigh the same.

I have started paying more and buying more Nosler and Norma (or Lapua) brass if I can get it. The Norma or Lapua lasts twice as long and I suspect so does Nosler. One other thing that I have noticed is that Norma and/or Nosler brass comes annealed in the shoulder and neck when new. I suspect that Nosler brass, at least some of it, is sourced from Norma since the cases weigh the same, at least in the two calibers that I have weighed and compared.

I will keep weighing new brass and start keeping a journal on it. I have never paid much attention before. I have had some real quality issues with Remington brass and now with Win-Western brass as well. Brass is not much good if you can not get a single load from new cases.

 

[DrMike]

At one point, Charlie, Norma claimed on their web site to be producing Nosler brass. Those contracts may be reviewed on some regular basis, but that was the contention about two years ago.

 

[Oldtrader3]

DrMike, I believe that is still true, at least in some calibers that Nosler is Norma brass. We do not get all of the Norma caliber here in the US any more and I believe that buying Nosler brass is the best way to do so from what I am seeing. Nosler must be sourcing, at least some calibers, from Norma.

That is fine with me. I have a great deal of respect for both Lapua and Norma for brass and bullets. I also have some Norma 286 grain, 9.3mm bullets that I got for half-price from Graf's. I will take all that I can find at $28/box of 50.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Yes and no. Of course in the case you list above ..which I feel is an apple and orange comparo...the quality control has to be spot on,,,does it not? Moreover higher volume does equate to higher revenue. But if you go higher volume you aren't doing it without a higher demand. At this point this can lead to the "what can we get away with in a safe manner" ...and there is no doubt that Rem and Win brass is safe first and foremost. Dimensions vary but not at the expense of safety and overall function. The brass in its current form is perfectly fine for 90 plus percent of the shooters and the platform they are using. Or the shooters ability as well.

Most manufacturing quality control for brass and bullets is still based on a sampling level. This sampling and reworking bad product really is not "quality control" at all. It does not ever yield better product just more of the same product at some determinate level of being bad product.

When you have a premium product like Norma or Lapua, you can invest in systems which will inspect every case or bullet made and quality really begins to mean something tangible and deliverable because you know what each attribute is doing real time and you can change the output of any attribute real time, to yield whatever quality level (CpK) that you want.

Remington and W-W will never make good product only an adequate product for 90% of the shooting public as you said. As a shooter, we have to decide how much we are willing to pay for repeatability and reliablity.

 

[kraky]

Just a month ago picked up a bag of win 7stw brass....the friggen case mouths all sat with a very noticeable angle...had to trim every one of em.
Have had countless new win cases over the years with too shallow of primer pockets. Have always had excellent consistancy with Norma. Just picked up a bunch of nosler 270wby brass...it is definately a perfect match to Norma...exactly the same wt and case capacity.

 

[300WSM]

Yes and no. Of course in the case you list above ..which I feel is an apple and orange comparo...the quality control has to be spot on,,,does it not? Moreover higher volume does equate to higher revenue. But if you go higher volume you aren't doing it without a higher demand. At this point this can lead to the "what can we get away with in a safe manner" ...and there is no doubt that Rem and Win brass is safe first and foremost. Dimensions vary but not at the expense of safety and overall function. The brass in its current form is perfectly fine for 90 plus percent of the shooters and the platform they are using. Or the shooters ability as well.

Most manufacturing quality control for brass and bullets is still based on a sampling level. This sampling and reworking bad product really is not "quality control" at all. It does not ever yield better product just more of the same product at some determinate level of being bad product.

When you have a premium product like Norma or Lapua, you can invest in systems which will inspect every case or bullet made and quality really begins to mean something tangible and deliverable because you know what each attribute is doing real time and you can change the output of any attribute real time, to yield whatever quality level (CpK) that you want.

Remington and W-W will never make good product only an adequate product for 90% of the shooting public as you said. As a shooter, we have to decide how much we are willing to pay for repeatability and reliablity.

My take on the Norma and Lapua way....I'm sure Nosler is right there with them...if the brass does not fall into a certain spec...it gets scrapped. Hence the higher cost. Someone is paying for that brass that will never be used, just so the brass that can be used is under the same spec.

Maybe they do have more expensive equipment to make sure the brass stays in tolerance. Either way the consumer is going to pay the extra attention to detail regardless how they get there.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Actually, the trick is to make it right the first time and not make any scrap. Part of the cost is process control and automation. The rest of the extra cost is profit for making it right the first time and charging a more for doing it. A premium for premium product. It works for me, I am willing to pay more and know that when I buy it, it will work and not fail and/or injure me. There is a premium justified for that surety.

 

[300WSM]

Old trader,

Having worked in some rather high tech plants...running some cnc machines...drafting up new parts....doing it right the first time is no doubt the ideal thing. Often times it isn't the reality of it. Not only that, when some parts don't require a super tight tolerance you can produce them faster. Whether it is in inspection to the actual finish ..needing grinding and how many times, belt sanded or just the finish from the rate of feed that is was turned or milled at is suffice...all kinds of things can be eliminated when a bigger tolerance is acceptable. The more brass produced per hour equates to a lower overall net cost. Whether or not that is conveyed is of course decided upon by the mfg....

in the end I would say that the three brass makers you cite have more time involved in making said piece of brass. If that is from inspection and discarding out of tolerance ones or just in the machining process so there are very few out of spec pieces....either way there is a greater cost involved than what Rem and Olin are putting out.

Regardless of all this in the post the price of brass on all levels IMO is just ridiculous. This is coming from someone who buys made in usa danner boots only at over $300 and is willing to pay for quality in anything. All the quality in the world with brass can be there and the prices are just crazy. I know someone can cite fifteen reason why it is so expensive....but I don't care. It is too damn much!