Brass Failure

[truck driver]

I went to the range today to check out some loads that I have had setting on the bench for a while and wasn't impressed with the results so I'm not including pictures of the groups. I was testing some 225gr ABs and some 250gr PTs with RL17 and CFE223.
The 250s surprised me a little since they grouped better than the 225s but then I've always had better luck with flat base bullets over boat tails.
The 35 Whelen Ackely brass has been reloaded a lot and annealed after every firing since Scotty told me he annealed after each firing to preserve the life of the brass.
I have been losing one piece every now and then but tonight after cleaning what I shot today I decided to just resize the brass since I noticed some difference in case length and had planned to trim it.
The first piece into the sizing die left the case neck in the die. So I took the die apart and drove the neck out of the die with a punch and cleaned the die before I reassembled it. The next piece stuck in the die and the rim separated from the case leaving another problem to fix. I have a brass rod that I use to drive the case out of the die when I have this problem which until now was very rare. The piece of brass came out with out too much force, I cut the brass in two to get the sizer button out and I cleaned and reassembled the die again.
Now I got my jewelers magnifier out and stared to inspect each piece thoroughly before it was sized and used a dental pick to check for cracks on the inside of the brass that I couldn't see from the out side. I found a total of 10 pieces counting the first two.
Most of them just had star shaped cracks in the neck but there was quite a few that had cracks that would cause the neck to separate from the case, you could see a ring forming at the base of the neck and case shoulder with the magnifier that you couldn't see with the naked eye.
Here's a pic of the one the neck separated from.
I guess I got lucky with this one since it didn't separate in the rifle chamber.
Is this a common problem with fire formed cases?

 

[Alderman]

I'll leave it to the experts but curious as to how many loadings did you get out of the brass?


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[truck driver]

Alderman,
Unfortunately I have no idea. Some of the brass was used and some was new when I started playing with the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved. I do know that I have shot right around 300 bullets working up loads and trying different powders to see what would work best in the rifle.
The load psi has been kept below 62Kpsi with most being right around 58-60Kpsi.

 

[Gunner46]

Some guys seemed to want to give me some grief about chucking the lot of brass I'd been loading. I got 5-6 reloads out of it and then started started to get split necks. Considering it cost me a dime, or less, for each use of the brass, I considered it just the COB. Got another 100 once fired on an even trade for some stuff I was not going to be using anymore anyway.

The 'frustration factor' played a huge part in my decision to just shoot what I had left of the old stuff and not look back.

 

[truck driver]

I'm not upset or anything about it and would rather chuck it then have to pay for a Smith to remove it from the chamber of the rifle.
Though the thorough inspection is a pain using a dental pick to find the bad cases it is a learning curve also since if I didn't clean the brass after each firing I wouldn't have caught the ones that I didn't run threw the sizer die and a sharp curved dental pick and a magnifier is the only way to find some of the bad brass, some of the defects would be missed with normal visual inspection.
I haven't had split necks since I started annealing the brass but have to look for what looks like star or spider web type cracks in the necks.
I wish I had a camera that I could take pictures that would show what I'm talking about so others could see what I'm experiencing and not have the problems I'm experiencing.
Most reloaders won't have these problems since they only do light reloading and won't experiment the way I have been doing with the 35 Whelen AI. In a way I guess I have been torture testing the brass also. :roll: :lol:

 

[PJGunner]

"I'm not upset or anything about it and would rather chuck it then have to pay for a Smith to remove it from the chamber of the rifle."

There is a very good chance of removing that stuck neck from a chamber by using a new stiff 35 caliber bronze bore brush. Just run it cast the stuck piece and then pull it back out. It'll be real stiff on the reversal so be aware of that.
Paul B.

 

[Alderman]

No expert but I've got to believe the very act of fire forming adds additional stress to the brass. If all of the brass has been handled the same and that many are starting to fail, the rest can't be too far behind.


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[truck driver]

"I'm not upset or anything about it and would rather chuck it then have to pay for a Smith to remove it from the chamber of the rifle."

There is a very good chance of removing that stuck neck from a chamber by using a new stiff 35 caliber bronze bore brush. Just run it cast the stuck piece and then pull it back out. It'll be real stiff on the reversal so be aware of that.
Paul B.

Thanks for the tip, I hope I never have to use it.

 

[SJB358]

Pretty darned interesting. Never seen a neck separate.

 

[Alderman]

I've had some with 264 Mag and 22 Hornet.


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[truck driver]

Pretty darned interesting. Never seen a neck separate.

Scotty I have several that are ready to or that will on the next loading. This all Nosler brass since it had the largest case capacity and was what my QLs were based on.

 

[SJB358]

Seems like you got your use out of them.

Still, I haven't seen a neck separate. Head separation yes, but not a neck. Wonder if it cause of the fire forming, but again brass flows forward so I would always look towards the rear first. Either way, I'm glad they weren't fired rounds. Could be pretty dangerous.

 

[Bonz]

Hello Rodger!

Could the annealing be contributing? Like, the line where annealing tapers off is causing the fracture? Too much annealing (after every firing)?

I have loaded brass umpteen times (35 Whelen RP headstamp) over the course of the past 14 years, with A LOT of load development especially early on when I got the gun and never any issues. I have not annealed a case neck in any cartridge in the course of 25 years of reloading and not a single issue, including a 300 Win Mag that I know I loaded some cases 10+ times before primer pockets started to loosen and I retired the brass.

Bummer it is happening, I would look at annealing or something related to the way the cases are sized as a place to start?

 

[cloverleaf]

Saw this happen with a piece of lake city ammo a couple weeks ago. 223 in an AR. Neck from one round broke off in the chamber. Case flipped out and the next round inserted its bullet through neck left behind and the rifle failed to close and fire (fortunately). We were able to extract the second round with the neck of the first tightly stuck around the bullet. As I understand Lake city is once loaded. CL

 

[truck driver]

Hello Rodger!

Could the annealing be contributing? Like, the line where annealing tapers off is causing the fracture? Too much annealing (after every firing)?

I have loaded brass umpteen times (35 Whelen RP headstamp) over the course of the past 14 years, with A LOT of load development especially early on when I got the gun and never any issues. I have not annealed a case neck in any cartridge in the course of 25 years of reloading and not a single issue, including a 300 Win Mag that I know I loaded some cases 10+ times before primer pockets started to loosen and I retired the brass.

Bummer it is happening, I would look at annealing or something related to the way the cases are sized as a place to start?

I don't think so Howard. I think it is more from fire forming and sizing since these are fire formed cases unlike your standard 35 Whelen cases. Before I started annealing the cases I was getting split necks when seating bullets.

Seems like you got your use out of them.

Still, I haven't seen a neck separate. Head separation yes, but not a neck. Wonder if it cause of the fire forming, but again brass flows forward so I would always look towards the rear first. Either way, I'm glad they weren't fired rounds. Could be pretty dangerous.

Scotty when you fire form 35 Whelen AI cases the shoulder is blown out but the neck gets longer.
I measured a standard case neck and from base to mouth it was .438" while the AI case neck was .464" so you're looking at .026" difference. I believe the case failure is caused by the shoulder being set back to form the 40* shoulder.
And I have got my moneys worth out of it with all the times it's been loaded.

 

[jimbires]

would these cases have the necks cut ? do you wear gloves when loading ?

years back I bought a bag of brass for my 7mm rem mag . on the second fire the brass would eject with the neck missing . I would tip the rifle up and the neck would fall out . after a few of these I stoped using this batch of brass . I just called it a bad batch of brittle brass , and it's junk . one day I got to pulling the bullets and saving what I could , I had two bullets pull the necks off . these two bullets show a lot of corrosion . I'm still not sure what caused this . I've often wondered if it's my hands causing the start of the corrosion , I'm bad for this . I never had this problem before , and I've never ran into it since . these necks are not cut . I do not wear gloves when loading . brass was not annealed .


these cases are not dented up , it is just a reflection from the loading tray .

 

[truck driver]

Jim, I don't wear gloves but wash my hands before sizing and afterwards to make sure I get all the body oil and sizing lube off my hands. Years ago I had a problem with contaminating primers when priming on the press. I try not to handle primers anymore than I have to.
Since this happened in the sizing die I think the brass had reached it's maximum life and the others I found before they created a problem. I have 10 new pieces all ready formed waiting to replace them.

 

[Elkman]

I measured a standard case neck and from base to mouth it was .438" while the AI case neck was .464" so you're looking at .026" difference. I believe the case failure is caused by the shoulder being set back to form the 40* shoulder.

rodger i believe you have it right, from the photos its looks like that the failure occurs right along that line. I have seen other improved cases fail along the same line. It's got to be a weak area and resizing makes it fail faster than would be consistent with a standard case.

 

[truck driver]

I measured a standard case neck and from base to mouth it was .438" while the AI case neck was .464" so you're looking at .026" difference. I believe the case failure is caused by the shoulder being set back to form the 40* shoulder.

rodger i believe you have it right, from the photos its looks like that the failure occurs right along that line. I have seen other improved cases fail along the same line. It's got to be a weak area and resizing makes it fail faster than would be consistent with a standard case.

I'm going to split a case into and see if I can see the problem from the inside since I have several that have not lost the necks. That should show the crack forming in the crease at the bottom of the shoulder and neck.

 

[sask boy]

As usual guys a very interesting subject thank you so much for the response and all the information. I hope that I can store it in my memory bank for future use!!

Blessings,
Dan