I figure a little background is necessary on this one. I'm planning to take about a week off and hunt black bear back home in southern West Virginia. I spent all of 2010 in Afghanistan and, therefore, missed out on hunting anything but Taliban lol. I'm an experienced hunter and handloader but I've been debating with myself about what bullet I want to use in my beloved Ruger M77 Hawkeye All Weather .338 Win Mag. This gun has worked unfailingly for me in the past many, many times. I've shot it a whole lot and absolutely love it. It prefers either 225 or 250 grain bullets. The bears in my area of WV range from 200 pounds up to a tad over 700. I am well aware that a smaller gun would work but I'm a firm believe in using enough gun especially since I hunt off the ground sometimes in really thick cover. I currently have a handload worked up that consistently prints groups under one inch consisting of the 250 grain Swift A-Frame. I get about the same results with the same weight Partition. My concern is that either of these two may be too tough if I shoot a smaller bear. I've done a few tests with the A-Frame and it doesn't expand a whole lot. Yes, I try to break the shoulders on a bear for obvious reasons but we all know sometimes that may not be possible. What would you recommend? I'm open to suggestions for recommended bullets that will hold together well even if encountering heavy bone at close range but still provide that one shot stop in an emergency situation. (I back up some of my buddies when bowhunting on occasion.) Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Bullet debate for Black Bear
- Thread starter stalker07
- Start date
Mountain Goat
Handloader
- Dec 14, 2010
- 386
- 12
Good question, and welcome to the Nosler Forum.
Black bears aren't really a tough skinned animal with really heavy bones, but they can take a lot of punnishment at times. I've had them flop dead with a 120gr Partition from a 25-06, run off full-speed for 150yds after lung-shot with a 30-06 180grn Hornady, and seen them do anything in between. I wouldn't hesitate one bit about using a 250gr A-frame (or Partition) on a 200lb bear. They are soft enough in the nose, and have a large enough frontal area to do some real damage. Bottom line to me is: I'd use the bullet that shoots under an inch every time. I think you have eliminated any margin by using the awesome .338. When you see one that is 300lbs or more, you will be glad you did. I'm not sure what I'd do if I had a chance at 600 pounder. :shock:
Black bears aren't really a tough skinned animal with really heavy bones, but they can take a lot of punnishment at times. I've had them flop dead with a 120gr Partition from a 25-06, run off full-speed for 150yds after lung-shot with a 30-06 180grn Hornady, and seen them do anything in between. I wouldn't hesitate one bit about using a 250gr A-frame (or Partition) on a 200lb bear. They are soft enough in the nose, and have a large enough frontal area to do some real damage. Bottom line to me is: I'd use the bullet that shoots under an inch every time. I think you have eliminated any margin by using the awesome .338. When you see one that is 300lbs or more, you will be glad you did. I'm not sure what I'd do if I had a chance at 600 pounder. :shock:
- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks! I had a 300 pounder run down a logging road on me while bowhunting whitetails from the base of an oak tree one evening. It stopped about 10 yards away and looked at me funny lol. I started to draw my bow and it took off, luckily, in the opposite direction. I was 13 years old at the time and to say I was a lil nervous would be a gross understatement! I've been on a couple of tracking jobs when blackies were shot with a poor bullet and I didn't like it one bit. Had a .270 with 130 grain core-lokts fail to penetrate the shoulder of a bear that weighed 287. Luckily we spotted it moving up a hillside and finished it. There's nothing like hunting bear. Only in the past three or four years have we been able to hunt them with rifles where I'm from. The population has just exploded. No one really hunts them and those that do are usually too lazy to get back in the mountains where the big ones are. We have one that's been frequenting our family cemetary and knocking tombstones over when he tries to rub his coat on them. The WVDNR estimate he would weigh around 650 lbs. He's very sly though and baiting isn't allowed. I'm hoping to get to take a month of leave from my station here on Fort Campbell to be able to put in the time to tag him.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,402
- 6,213
stalker07,
I wouldn't hesitate to load up 225 grain AB or PT. They will expand quite well at the anticipated impact velocities. You could even go with the 210 grain PT or either the 180 or 200 grain AB, if they group well out of your rifle. It is true that the A-Frame will sometimes fail to expand as much as we want at high velocities. Though they are an excellent bullet, I've witnessed them move right through moose and elk. However, I have had opportunity to witness the performance of both the AccuBond and the Partition on game on numerous occasions. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of these bullets in whatever weight your rifle groups best.
I wouldn't hesitate to load up 225 grain AB or PT. They will expand quite well at the anticipated impact velocities. You could even go with the 210 grain PT or either the 180 or 200 grain AB, if they group well out of your rifle. It is true that the A-Frame will sometimes fail to expand as much as we want at high velocities. Though they are an excellent bullet, I've witnessed them move right through moose and elk. However, I have had opportunity to witness the performance of both the AccuBond and the Partition on game on numerous occasions. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of these bullets in whatever weight your rifle groups best.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 25,342
- 8,903
stalker07,
I have 3 bears to my credit, all taken with partitions.
Black bears are easy to kill if you hit them right and use the correct bullet. My last beat was shot at 30 feet with a 210 gr PT from my 338 RUM at a MV of 3200 fps. He was quartering towards me, the 210 gr PT entered the on shoulder and exited the ribs on the off side leaving a hole the size of a golf ball. The bear folded in his tracks.
Take a look at the 210 gr PT in your 338 Win Mag. This bullet penetrates way more than you wold think and you should get 2900-3000 fps.
JD338
I have 3 bears to my credit, all taken with partitions.
Black bears are easy to kill if you hit them right and use the correct bullet. My last beat was shot at 30 feet with a 210 gr PT from my 338 RUM at a MV of 3200 fps. He was quartering towards me, the 210 gr PT entered the on shoulder and exited the ribs on the off side leaving a hole the size of a golf ball. The bear folded in his tracks.
Take a look at the 210 gr PT in your 338 Win Mag. This bullet penetrates way more than you wold think and you should get 2900-3000 fps.
JD338
I took a nice bear this spring with my 338 edge using 225 ABs. I love this bullet. Right behind the shoulder and he went about 50 yards. I also took my first bear with a 210 PT out of a 338 WM at 370 yards, not a great test because the bear was only about 80 pounds.
I also shoot the 225 AB out of my 338 wm. I would sure think that for what you are describing the 225 AB would be one of the better picks a guy could make.
I also shoot the 225 AB out of my 338 wm. I would sure think that for what you are describing the 225 AB would be one of the better picks a guy could make.
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,789
- 6,036
JD338 and JMad use those high velocity .338's - good grief - the bear doesn't even know he's been shot before he's dead! :grin: That's probably a good thing in retrospect...
I'm with you - I like sudden death on the bears. I've only shot a couple of 'em. Put a nice size black bear on the deck at 306 yards with one shot from a .375 H&H, using a 260 gr Nosler AccuBond. The bear crawled less than 10 feet after being shot. He was down in an instant. The AccuBond penetrated completely through and wrecked everything in the chest.
Used the same rifle and bullet to help stop my son's bear from running. It worked real good.
I'd say you'd be well served with either an AccuBond or a Partition. For some reason the 210 gr Partition calls to me - maybe because a couple of my friends have used it on elk and bear with terrific results.
By the way - many thanks for your service!
Semper Fi, Guy
I'm with you - I like sudden death on the bears. I've only shot a couple of 'em. Put a nice size black bear on the deck at 306 yards with one shot from a .375 H&H, using a 260 gr Nosler AccuBond. The bear crawled less than 10 feet after being shot. He was down in an instant. The AccuBond penetrated completely through and wrecked everything in the chest.
Used the same rifle and bullet to help stop my son's bear from running. It worked real good.
I'd say you'd be well served with either an AccuBond or a Partition. For some reason the 210 gr Partition calls to me - maybe because a couple of my friends have used it on elk and bear with terrific results.
By the way - many thanks for your service!
Semper Fi, Guy
The 250gr Partition will open. If you already have a good load with it, I wouldn't change unless you may be shooting longer ranges. Then I'd look at the 210 Partition or 225 AB to flatten trajectory. If I ever got a 338 I'd try those two bullets and use whichever shot best for everything I'd use a 338 for.
I sighted in one of the older M77 all-weather rifles in 338 for a friend one time. Be glad you have the newer model with a decent recoil pad.
I sighted in one of the older M77 all-weather rifles in 338 for a friend one time. Be glad you have the newer model with a decent recoil pad.
C.Smith
Handloader
- Oct 11, 2006
- 1,411
- 0
I don't have any bear advise for you, I'm going for the first time in two weeks. But wanted to also thank you for your service.
Corey
Corey
lefty315
Handloader
- Sep 29, 2004
- 947
- 483
I shot a bruiser in Canada with a 250 grain Speer Grand Slam from my .338 Win. Another here in Washington with a 250 grain Speer Hot Core from my .35 Whelen and one in Idaho with a 200 grain AccuBond from my .300 WSM. None went more than 10 to 15 yards after being hit. Pretty much what the others have said above, shoot what you have and don't think twice. Although, since it is a Nosler site, the Partition would get you some brownie points.
filmjunkie4ever
Handloader
- May 4, 2011
- 1,964
- 1,352
While I have yet to shoot a bear, have seen many of them killed with lesser rounds than your 338. But I feel that you will be just fine, because as you said, you have shot it a lot and feel confident in it. The 250 grain A-frame is a fine bullet and it wont let you down. However if you are truly concerned, drop down to a 225, that is still plenty of bullet for any black bear! Good luck and dont worry about a thing, you are well armed with your rifle and its pet loads!
- Thread starter
- #12
First off, to those who thanked me for my service, you're welcome. One of the greatest things we can fight to preserve in this country is the outdoors and the hunting spirit. I'd much rather fight terrorists over there than over here.
JD338, I have seriously been considering giving the 210 grain Partition a whirl in my win mag. I've read a lot of reviews about it and shot them but I've never hunted with them. How do you like that .338 RUM? I've got the .300 and .375 RUMs but didn't figure I had a use for the .338 version since I already have the win mag. I wouldn't hesitate to take that .375 after anything on the planet...It's a monster. Partitions aren't a good idea in it though, sadly. The recoil is so severe that it severely mangles the tips of the bullets in the magazine.
I debate often between the Partition and AccuBond but I'm a Partition fan. The first deer I ever killed with a rifle was killed with one of my handloaded 160 grain Partitions out of my 7mm Rem mag. I was 16 at the time. I killed my first deer when I was 11 with a bow and rifle hunting was just too easy to me after that. Those skills learned through bow hunting have helped me a lot as a sniper I must say.
I'm expecting distances to range from mere feet to 300 plus yards because those bears tend to feed on the sides of valleyfills from old strip mines. If anyone's ever interested in hunting bear in southern WV let me know. 535 square miles, 18,000 people in the entire county. It's a hunter's paradise. Vast majority of the land is public. Liscenses aren't expensive and there is no special draw lottery type deal like out west. You just go buy your tags over the counter and go hunt. As a plus, active duty military pay for nothing as long as you have leave papers.
JD338, I have seriously been considering giving the 210 grain Partition a whirl in my win mag. I've read a lot of reviews about it and shot them but I've never hunted with them. How do you like that .338 RUM? I've got the .300 and .375 RUMs but didn't figure I had a use for the .338 version since I already have the win mag. I wouldn't hesitate to take that .375 after anything on the planet...It's a monster. Partitions aren't a good idea in it though, sadly. The recoil is so severe that it severely mangles the tips of the bullets in the magazine.
I debate often between the Partition and AccuBond but I'm a Partition fan. The first deer I ever killed with a rifle was killed with one of my handloaded 160 grain Partitions out of my 7mm Rem mag. I was 16 at the time. I killed my first deer when I was 11 with a bow and rifle hunting was just too easy to me after that. Those skills learned through bow hunting have helped me a lot as a sniper I must say.
I'm expecting distances to range from mere feet to 300 plus yards because those bears tend to feed on the sides of valleyfills from old strip mines. If anyone's ever interested in hunting bear in southern WV let me know. 535 square miles, 18,000 people in the entire county. It's a hunter's paradise. Vast majority of the land is public. Liscenses aren't expensive and there is no special draw lottery type deal like out west. You just go buy your tags over the counter and go hunt. As a plus, active duty military pay for nothing as long as you have leave papers.
Woodycreek
Handloader
- Aug 2, 2007
- 2,240
- 0
I know a couple Jarheads from Va that would probably take you up on that invite someday :mrgreen: Glad you are home and good luck getting that monster cemetery bear.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 25,342
- 8,903
stalker07,
IMHO, the 338 RUM is the best of both the 300 RUM and the 375 RUM.
The rifle is very accurate and it hits like a freight train.
Try the 210 gr PT, it won't disappoint.
Glad you are home and thank you for your service to our country.
Very nice offer too my friend.
JD338
IMHO, the 338 RUM is the best of both the 300 RUM and the 375 RUM.
The rifle is very accurate and it hits like a freight train.
Try the 210 gr PT, it won't disappoint.
Glad you are home and thank you for your service to our country.
Very nice offer too my friend.
JD338
stalker07":f9adeq5g said:
Welcome to Nosler from another service man! Glad you are going to get some great leave to take advantage of the season. That is always the best to come home from leave and HUNT! I love it..
As for your load with the 250gr PT. If that works well in your rifle and shoots accurately, I would quit worrying and go hunting! I am shooting the exact same bullet out of my 338WM and run it about 2700 and it shoots excellent. Plenty of power for any animal on this continent and most others as well. It is really a great combo.
If you just wanna tinker, the 210gr PT would be my next choice, you would get some excellent speed and a great bullet that really does penetrate well. Check out the bullet tests in our section, might sway you one way or the other. Good luck and hope to here from you more! Scotty
- Thread starter
- #16
Nothin like gettin a bunch of either prior service or current servicemen together to hunt, fish, shoot etc etc. Might be from different branches but we're all on the same team.
JD, I'm considering getting a .338 RUM bc I'm a big fan of said bullet diameter. However, I have so many rifles that there really isn't a purpose for it 'cept that I just want it. I wonder if I could get a T/C Pro-Hunter barrel chambered for the .338 RUM? It'd be nice and could take advantage of the 28 inch barrel. Recoil would be rather stiff but tolerable.
Scotty, I'm looking into the 210 grain Partition as we speak. I may give it a shot. I dunno, the .338's primary advantage to me is the extra sectional density and heavy bullet. I know it will penetrate and get the job done every time. Last bear I shot with it was about a 350 lb blackie from sixty yards as it was headed away down an old logging road. The 250 gr Partition went through lenghtwise, exited the chest leaving about a 3 inch hole. The bear literaly did a somersault and then proceeded to run almost two hundred yards with the heart completely destroyed. That was where the basis for my concern about energy dump came from. I have the .300 RUM and a .300 Win mag both capable of launching the 200 gr Partition with deadly effect but I prefer the .338. I see no need to break out the .375 Ultra with 260 grain AB even though I may one day regret that statement
JD, I'm considering getting a .338 RUM bc I'm a big fan of said bullet diameter. However, I have so many rifles that there really isn't a purpose for it 'cept that I just want it. I wonder if I could get a T/C Pro-Hunter barrel chambered for the .338 RUM? It'd be nice and could take advantage of the 28 inch barrel. Recoil would be rather stiff but tolerable.
Scotty, I'm looking into the 210 grain Partition as we speak. I may give it a shot. I dunno, the .338's primary advantage to me is the extra sectional density and heavy bullet. I know it will penetrate and get the job done every time. Last bear I shot with it was about a 350 lb blackie from sixty yards as it was headed away down an old logging road. The 250 gr Partition went through lenghtwise, exited the chest leaving about a 3 inch hole. The bear literaly did a somersault and then proceeded to run almost two hundred yards with the heart completely destroyed. That was where the basis for my concern about energy dump came from. I have the .300 RUM and a .300 Win mag both capable of launching the 200 gr Partition with deadly effect but I prefer the .338. I see no need to break out the .375 Ultra with 260 grain AB even though I may one day regret that statement
Can't beat that 250gr PT. I think it probably expanded fine, the bear just wasn't sure he was dead yet. That is one great load with the 338WM and 250gr PT. It is the load I would take anywhere. The 210 would be tops as well. Just haven't tried it yet either. I imagine RL19 would get it up into the 3000 range and that would be plenty tough for about anything. Scotty
- Nov 4, 2004
- 25,342
- 8,903
The 250 gr PT will indeed work but the higher velocity of the 210 gr PT will cause more tissue trauma while still exiting the animal.
JD338
JD338
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,789
- 6,036
"The 250 gr Partition went through lenghtwise, exited the chest leaving about a 3 inch hole. The bear literaly did a somersault and then proceeded to run almost two hundred yards with the heart completely destroyed."
It's stuff like this that tells the tale of how hardy an animal the common black bear really is... Hit with a big bullet that exited. Off his feet at impact, back up and running a couple of hundred yards with no heart left.
Dang. If that doesn't make a guy respect the bear, not much will.
I know they sometimes drop at the shot, stone dead. Other times they don't. In 2009 I hit one at longish range with a 165 Nosler Partition from my .308 Win. He dropped, rolled, and ran right into the brush. Despite hours of searching, we never found him. Dead? Survived? Who knows? That's one reason I started doing more practice with my .375 and used it in 2010!
That worked... :mrgreen:
It's stuff like this that tells the tale of how hardy an animal the common black bear really is... Hit with a big bullet that exited. Off his feet at impact, back up and running a couple of hundred yards with no heart left.
Dang. If that doesn't make a guy respect the bear, not much will.
I know they sometimes drop at the shot, stone dead. Other times they don't. In 2009 I hit one at longish range with a 165 Nosler Partition from my .308 Win. He dropped, rolled, and ran right into the brush. Despite hours of searching, we never found him. Dead? Survived? Who knows? That's one reason I started doing more practice with my .375 and used it in 2010!
That worked... :mrgreen:
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,402
- 6,213
For sure, black bears deserve respect. The first bear I ever shot was almost seven feet. He dropped at the shot and never moved. He was shot at 125 yards; I was using a 7mm RM loaded with 175 grain TBBCs exiting the barrel at 2800 fps. Necropsy showed that the bullet took out the top of the lungs and a bone splinter penetrated the vertebral column. My thought was, "Man, these things are easy to kill." That afternoon, I came upon a little two-year-old sow. Thinking she would be great table fare, I shot her from a distance of about 75 yards. The first shot spined her, anchoring her on the spot. She was moaning and crying, and I wanted to put her out of her misery. I sent a second bullet which completely destroyed her heart. She clawed and bellowed her displeasure with the puny creature than had inflicted such insult. I shot her twice more, necropsy confirming that each of the shots destroyed what was left of lung tissue and the shock destroying whatever was left of her heart. Walking up to her, I finally shot her through the head to put an end to her fury. I remember sitting beside her and thinking, "What kind of animal is this? I've never seen anything absorb that much injury!" Since that time, I've shot several score black and grizzly bears, and I'm humbled at the determination of some bears to live even after serious injury. I've been compelled to track bears wounded by others on several occasions, and I've witnessed the tenacity of some "dead bears" to hang on until they can hurt whatever hurt them. A .270 is sufficient to cleanly kill a big black; but I am convinced of the value of knowing bear anatomy and ensuring that you hit bone to put 'em down. I can testify that a .375 H & H is insufficient if the bullets impacts in the wrong spot. I have witnessed four paws in the air, and when the hunter paused to admire his handiwork watched the dead bear flip and run with amazing speed into the bush.
