Dialing vs Holdover

[IdahoCTD]

I personally like to use crosshairs because its fasters and you dont have to worry about where your dial is if you get multiple chances in quick succession at different distance. I've had it happened a lot and you get bogged down figuring out where you dials are from the last place/distance you dialed. You just have to know at what power your reticle is correct if your shooting SFP scopes, which I prefer. I run TMOA reticles in Leupold VX6's and MOAR-T reticles in Nightforce scopes.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Two other scopes that I am interested in trying, but haven't had the chance to yet, are the Leica Amplus 6 3-18x44i BDC MOA and Zeiss V-4 4-16x44 #68 ZBi Illum - ASV-EASV-W Ballistic Turret.
Of the two, I am leaning more towards the Zeiss as I thinkt the illuminated cross might be nicer for most of my hunting vs the smaller illuminated dot on the crosshair of the Leica.
Anyone tried these? Or compared the two?
Thoughts?

i just mounted one of my kids Leica Amplus 6 3-18×44's on a 7prc with a Defiance Classic action and a Krieger barrel. I'm in the middle of chambering the second 7prc for my youngest son now but got distracted by the BSU game. It will wear the same scope.

 

[mosesdad]

An interesting topic of conversation has started in another thread, and I thought I would ask my question here instead, to respect the OPs original thread there...

For those who dial and shoot, or those who have holdover BDC type reticles (B&C, TDS, BRH, etc.), what are the advantages to you in your style of aiming when shooting and/or hunting?
Or do you use both, depending on your style of shooting at the moment? (Target shooting vs hunting)

Myself, I love the Leupold Boone & Crocket reticles, and the older Kahles/Swarovski TDS reticles. As a hunter first, when in the field, I find this faster to adjust my aiming point on the animal in that I can just range, aim and shoot vs range, dial and shoot. But this just my preferred practice.
While many of my Leupolds have the option for the CDS cap to be cut for free for the rifle's preferred load, I have not done so as yet.

I have just acquired a couple of used VX-6HD scopes, one a 3-18x44 with the illuminated B&C reticle, and the other a 3-18x50 with the illuminated Varmint Hunters reticle, as they illuminate the entire BDC portion of the reticle. Having two of the illuminated B&C reticles already (a 2-12x42 and a 3-18x50), I like them a lot for their better quality glass and improved coatings, for low light hunting scenarios, as I can dial down the intensity of the illumination so that it doesn't overwhelm the aiming point on the target animal in low light conditions. And the illuminated reticle stands out better than a black reticle, especially on darker animals such as bear or moose, in the thick timber, or lower light conditions.

The newer Gen 2 sopes only illuminate the centre crosshair, not the entire BDC portion of the reticle. I can see where the smaller illuminated cross, just at the crosshair would be nicer as it would not cover so much of the aiming point on a target under lower light conditions, and the CDS dial would negate the use of the BDC portion of the reticle when you have more time to range, dial and shoot at long distance targets where the additional accuracy potential can be appreciated more. Not owning one as yet, I have no direct comparison from the field to judge the pros and cons between the two for myself.
The biggest advantage here (to me) is that it is a toolless system for setting your Zero. I like this...I would love to get a Gen 2, but the price of these scopes with the current exchange ratee and tariffs is very expensive here north of the border. And I am getting both of these used, excellent conditions scopes for the price of one new Gen 2.

With these two new-to-me scopes, as they will be going on my 25 Creedmoor, and the planned for the next build (a 257 AI Improved), And will be mainly for deer, sheep, and antelope in wide open spaces, I am wondering if I should order the CDS caps for more precise holds on longer shots (300-500 yards) under normal lighting conditions not requiring the illumination, and where I may have more time for the range, dial, shoot action, or target practice to verify the POIs and just get better at shooting the longer distances during practice in preparation for the hunts.
Thoughts on this from those who practice this method?

As for using a bdc or etched reticle
I prefer a custom turret calibrated to your particular load
Etched reticles work but are usually on second focal plane that needs to be dialed up to highest magnification or they dont work
A calibrated reticle relies on your ability to correctly identify the distance and elevation of target at any magnification

 

[SJB358]

Great topic. I started shooting further with the Leupold 6x42 with LR Dots which is the same spacing interval as a B&C. Worked fine out to 500 and 600 yards. I started using the 6x MQ SWFA and 3x9, both being able to dial or hold on the reticle.

The B&C or dotz worked fine but I hated the tweener distances. With fast stuff it wasn’t as bad but I just got to the point I’d rather hold center with a dialed correction vs holding off with a reticle.

To me I’ve heard about how fast a reticle is, and maybe the herd is right but with a B&C or Dots or TDS, you have to crank to the highest power usually and now you’re stuck with a limited field of view and not much to see when the shot goes off. Plus by the time you’ve cranked up the power to match the reticle for the shot, I’ve already glimpsed my drop chart and made my dope change. So I think it’s moot for me in speed. If I were engaging multiple targets at multiple ranges then yes, shooting the reticle is no doubt faster.

I’d rather shoot an elk or deer on 8 or 10x or so at 600 and be able to see what happens post shot vs being cranked to 15-18x and losing my situational awareness.

Today I use mostly FFP scopes with reticles I can shoot at timber/forest distances and crank up to the appropriate power to make the shot. My last few longer shots have been on about 8x of a 3-18 scope when I looked post shot. On paper, mag is nice but deer and elk are fairly big so I don’t need a ton. Plus I think no matter scopes quality, the image is always going to be brighter on the lower end, vs the upper end if that matter in your hunting.

 

[jimbires]

a couple more points were brought up , that I forgot about . I use my reticle scopes at max power . all my scopes are SFP scopes . I do not own a FFP scope . Leupold does have the magnification ring marked for the proper setting per velocity , I don't do that . I use max . by the time I set the power ring to the desired power , I could have dialed the scope turret . I've always like higher magnification for longer shots . so my thinking is , why would I turn the mag lower to make a longer shot .

yes you sure can zero the B&C reticle at any distance you desire . a few times I had a 300 yard zero for a certain hunt . the reticle spacing in yards gets goofy . I had to make a quick chart in the scope cap . it went something like ( just guessing here ) 300 , 360 , 440 , 580 . the numbers were not anything I could quickly remember . so there was no advantage to reticle speed . so I have been using a 200 yard zero . I think I've only used two different reticles , the Leupold B&C , and the Burris . they all work the same though .

these reticles work so well because they are mostly shorter range , 400 - 500 yards MAX . the CDS dials are more precise , a step above a reticle ,being they are cut to your particular combo . when I use a rangefinder with a reticle , CDS would be the same , I get the rangefinder to read the corrected distance in yards . when I'm dialing I get the rangefinder to give me the correction in MOA , since my dial up scopes have MOA knobs . I do not have any scope with CDS knobs . not that I don't like them , or think they are not good . if I dial , I'll use MOA . just me .

remember when using the reticle at in between distances , "splitting the reticle ". the bullet drops more in the second half of the distance . an example would be , the bullet will drop less from 500 - 550 yards , the bullet will drop more from 550 - 600 yards . this too is about unnoticeable at closer ranges .


if anyone has any particular questions , ask . there will be someone on here that can get you on the right path . this stuff is simple once ya dive in .


great discussion Fellas , I enjoy this stuff .

 

[xphunter]

@jimbires ,
Well Said.
"remember when using the reticle at in between distances , "splitting the reticle ". the bullet drops more in the second half of the distance."

 

[salmonchaser]

During my guiding career I saw many opportunities missed when guys changed settings on their scopes after mounting the rifle. Most of those opportunities were around 300 yards, one or two near 400. Never had a client shoot more than 4 and that was very rare. They would be on 3 power plus a little, the elk or mule deer would appear as expected across the draw. I can remember a time or two where the animal was sighted rifle raised “yes I’ve got him” then the rifle was lowered power ring turned and then I would see the rifle barrel move around searching for the animal. I like to shoot at the minimum power necessary at the distance I’m shooting. 300 on an elk or a Kudu size critters, 6 power. Near 500 with a white tail or a springbok size critter I’ll be 12 power plus. But thats been dialed before the rifle ever makes it to my shoulder.

 

[Charlie-NY]

I personally like to use crosshairs because its fasters and you dont have to worry about where your dial is if you get multiple chances in quick succession at different distance. I've had it happened a lot and you get bogged down figuring out where you dials are from the last place/distance you dialed. You just have to know at what power your reticle is correct if your shooting SFP scopes, which I prefer. I run TMOA reticles in Leupold VX6's and MOAR-T reticles in Nightforce scopes.

I'll add that with a 2nd focal plane, variable power scope, you can often adjust the power to make the 400yd and the 200yds land dead on. That being the case, the 300yd will be very close. I do not use any of the hash marks for 100yds. Anything from 100-200yds gets the central crosshair.

 

[TackDriver284]

I use both ways, I zero my 2nd focal plane / MOA NightForce scopes and keep a small elevation chart taped on the inside my scope pop out cover or taped on the side of the stock. For quick shooting situations where there is no time to fiddle with adjusting the turrets, I just use the hash marks on the reticles. It depends on if the game you are shooting is loitering around or spooked, giving you a choice to use the reticles or the turrets.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Inside of 400 I generally dont mess with hold over lines either if I need to shoot fast With a 200yd zero my 300wsm drops about 6.6 and 19 inches at 300 and 400yds. 300yds I hold just below the spine on a elk and 400 I give it 6-8" of daylight. At the 6-700yds I try to limit my shooting at game to , 1 MOA is 6-7". If you miss splitting hash marks you have bigger problems. That is 3-3.5" up or down from the center. Even on a deer or antelope that is a kill shot. If I was shooting further and had all the time in the world I would dial my scope. I killed a deer at 1004 and a cow elk at 1086 and dialed both of those but I personally dont feel good shooting that far, not because I cant do it but it feels unethical to me. The time of flight starts getting long and little errors are amplified the further you shoot. With 10 MOA in my VX6 reticles I can get to 650-680yds for most rifles I shoot. A Nightforce has more than enough to shoot well over 1000yds. A Nightforce NX8 4-32 has dual reticles for 16x and 32x. 16x is enough to shoot any distance I typically shoot but its nice having 32x for spotting and judging antlers if I dont carry a spotter. Its also quite nice shooting groups.

Another thing, I have missed game after dialing up a scope, forgetting to dial it back down, and shooting at something closer In a hurry. The only thing you have to worry about with reticles is the power the scope is on if its SFP. The places I hunt you can get shots from 50yds to infinity in all kinds of light conditions so FFP scopes dont make sense. The reticles are way too small at low power unless you remember to turn on the light every morning and evening before you walk up on a deer or elk at 50yds in low light.

I shot a spike bull at 50-60yds the last few minutes of the season 5-6 years ago. My buddy and I were walking back to the truck and just before we crested a hill some cows came out from the other side. We froze as they stared me down, my buddy was directly behind me and couldnt figure out what was going on at first. Eventually the spike came out and once none of them were looking at me I snapped shot him like it was a pheasant with a shotgun. My scope power was too high but it didnt matter at that distance. All I had to worry about was the safety. They had me locked down for close to 5 minutes and we had to use headlights to find him after he ran 60yds or so back down the hill they came up.

 

[highoctane]

The areas I hunt have no opportunity for "dialing yardage". 95 % of my shots are less than 125 yds with the vast majority being 75 or less, so therefore I'm a set it and forget it shooter!

 

[Blkram]

i just mounted one of my kids Leica Amplus 6 3-18×44's on a 7prc with a Defiance Classic action and a Krieger barrel. I'm in the middle of chambering the second 7prc for my youngest son now but got distracted by the BSU game. It will wear the same scope.

Look forward to the field reports on these scopes!

 

[Wolfshead]

The style of hunting that I love to do (still hunting/tracking) can be so fast that it could be over in seconds.
I have to have something that I can use without thinking in that style of hunting.
I also have a self imposed limit of 300 yards. I’m certain I could estimate what my loads would do past that, but I don’t have a way to confirm since that max I’m able to shoot is 300 yards.
I will not attempt to take an animal with an estimate! Besides, 300 is long enough for 99% of where I hunt.
That said, I have a Skinner 1-6x 24 lpvo on my Tikka T3x lite compact. It is my main hunting rifle. It has a twenty inch barrel, and I believe it is 39” overall length. It is very handy in the thick, close woods and performs very well on the AG fields we can hunt.
The Skinner has a 1 MOA illuminated red dot, and BDC retical marks after that.
I have my zero set at 100 yards. I know from zero to 150 yards my POA is never more than + or - an inch.
My load at 200 is approximately 2.5 inches low, (inside MPBR), and at 300 it is approximately 10.2” low, so for 300 I’m using the first retical mark.
Anything after 200 yards in most of my situations I will have time to dial up my scope from one to six. Inside 200 yards I can basically use MPBR, and will most likely be on one power, unless the situation allows me to dial up.
As has been shown in this thread there is SO MUCH that is involved in what we do that it can get very complicated to get a fast reaction in a hunting situation.
I’m a retired Football Coach and I always wanted my players to be able to play fast, and be able to react without having to think too much, thus slowing them down. I guess I’ve taken that type of thinking into the style of hunting I like to do.

I believe I know the thread that @Blkram has mentioned, and it really shows the differences in hunting styles, how one hunts in different parts of the country, and the multitude of ways that it can be done.
This thread I believe has shown that as well.
There is so much knowledge on this site, and this thread shows so much of that.
What I like most about this site, is that it is always done in a very civil manner, and respect. And, with a way of sharing information.
Not always with the other site….

 

[jimbires]

I know I'm gettin of topic here a little .

playing around with these drop reticle scopes , and shooting them at their longer distances , will show how the high BC bullets flatten things out . something that twisting the turret doesn't make as obvious .

 

[xphunter]

I know I'm getting off topic here a little .

playing around with these drop reticle scopes , and shooting them at their longer distances , will show how the high BC bullets flatten things out . something that twisting the turret doesn't make as obvious .

I had a friend come over last week, as he wanted to buy one of my XP's.
He is mainly a rimfire fixed distance shooter.
I gave him comparisons (Actual loads) from my Shooters App at both 500 yards and 1000 yards of the same cartridges and similar cartridges, using different bullets. Some if it was required, because the twist rate wouldn't allow me to use a high BC bullet.
He was stunned especially at the wind drift numbers, although the amount of drop is a big difference as well.
With low BC bullets, they drops faster than most think and they drift in the wind more than most think.
This was almost shocking to him.
He walked away with a fast twist 6mm Dasher (He is not a hunter) XP-100. He has a Dasher in a rifle already.
For someone who competes and shoots regularly, I was reminded from his many questions, how much is involved in all of this.

Every system has it's pros and cons.
IF, I had to be fast and it was of the upmost importance, I would run a Illuminated FFP with a H59 reticle (MIL Reticle).
It removes a issue that most here have not even brought up, like the inconsistency of turret clicks or how they can change over time.
Because the reticle is so busy, it brings a new learning curve, but it is Fast!
When people were changing over to it, I heard for the first time this phrase: "getting lost in the Z's" (or getting lost in the grid), referring to the visual confusion and cognitive overload. It is easy to lose track of your specific aiming point.
Like I said, everything has it's strengths and weaknesses-Pick your poison and run with it.
NOTE: I do not own a scope with H59 reticle.

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