Elk rifle

[Jeff Olsen]

Jeff Olsen, you can obfuscate all you want.. you KNOW the reason I took issue with your posts. It's because you're pontificating about what you have no experience with. Just as one example, your assertion a 300 Wby hurling a 200 or 335 a 210 isn't up to taking an elk past 400 yards is utterly absurd.

I've never been at the controls of a 747 so I never lecture my old man, who has, regarding how to fly one ... that's just common freaking sense.

I think that most people have no business shooting that far, and we agree on that. I think that beyond 400 yards a hunter is getting into a realm where a bullet's terminal performance comes into question, especially if it's a bullet that is also supposed to hold together at higher speeds. I think that there's a whole plateful of things that can go wrong with shots that long; the animal could move is one I don't think I mentioned but there's no point going into all that again. Having tracked wounded elk a couple times (not mine) I know for a FACT that a marginal hit with poor bullet performance is just asking for disaster on those fine animals, and I know for a fact that a 500, 600 yard shot is just begging for a hit "somewhere in the vitals" (IE, marginal) with a very good chance for poor bullet performance. And thus disaster.

And I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to question this and I DON'T think I'm pontificating. I'm pointing out reason after perfectly good reason why it's generally a bad idea with only a few very specific exceptions; the exceptions being a very qualified shooter and perfectly still game and on and on.

I'm no expert on 747's, either, but just because some guy (Yeager?) barrel-rolled a 737 or 747 (forget which) doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it regularly. Just because I've never hit myself in the head with a hammer doesn't mean I can't say it's a bad idea.

I have shooting skills considerably beyond the average hunter, not becasue I'm special but because I shoot a LOT with several different high-powered rifles. I don't doubt that you have shooting skills far beyond mine. I don't doubt that you have made some impressive long shots on game. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, or something that should be somehow "beyond discussion" on a forum like this! The fact that I've never shot an animal at 600 yards hardly disqualifies me from having an opinion on the subject.

That's about all I have to say on the subject... I really don't like fighting.

-jeff

 

[Brad]

Dude, you're thick as a brick... the more you type, the plainer that becomes.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Jeff- First off let me say something about the terminal part of balistics. First, most people use a magnum or Ultra mag to shoot heavier bullets with high BC"s. This translates into more energy and more velocity downrange, EVERY TIME vs. a lighter weight bullet. The people that shoot long range know that a bullet like an AB or BT will expand down to around 1600fps or so. So plug your ballistics into a computer and see what the yardage is that says 1600fps. That would be your max range for teh velocity. Now everyone has there own rules on ft lbs energy for animals. I have my own, you have your own. Anyways, I say that you need about 600-700 lbs for deer and 1,000 lbs for elk. That will get the job done if the bullet is placed properly in teh vitals. You then see where your range is that limits you on the energy side. Either way, you'll find what your cartridge/bullet combo is capable of, now its up to the shooter. I can guaruntee you that any 7mm or 300 mag is fully capable of puting down any elk at 800 yards. 270-30-06 will put them down at 500-600. Ultra MAgs will take them to 1000 yards and a litle more. ITs all about the shooter putting that bullet where it needs to go and doing your homework on the bullet and its balistics. Also, you need to remember that most Long range shooters use Sierra Matchkings or Berger VLD's that have h igher BC's then even btips or accubonds. This helps you even more in having more energy, more retained velocity, and less wind drift. Also you mention the animal taking a step. Well usually at ranges of 500 yards and farther, if the animal is not spooked, you have all the time in the world to get things ready. You only need a good minute or two anyways. More times then not the animal is just standing there feeding and you pattern its movement. The animals are in a relaxed state, and not on adrenaline either. Also I must say that "vital spot" is different to everyone. I say that deer have a 10" zone and elk have about a 15-20" zone. That covers the shoulder shot, which I prefer personally to anchor game on the spot, and it also covers the lung/heart area. Now I'm sure I'll get someone saying that my vital size is to big, but I beg the differ. I'm just trying to point out how we do things and perceive things. Doesn't mean its right, but it doesn't mean its wrong either, as you know that everyone has there own views and beliefs. It just seems no one wants to even listen as to how people go about shooting long range. If you haven't seen it done, you are missing something. If you've seen it done by people that weren't capable, I can see why people are against it. However there've been many times I've pointed to a rock 1000 yards a way and told people I was shooting at that rock and they had a hard time even beginning to pick out where I was shooting. When I shot and actually hit or even came close to hitting there jaw was usually on the ground. I guarantee there are far less wounded animals by the long range praire hunter who puts his time and practice into it, then some bum shooting his 270 or 06 right before the season.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well I'm bored and wanted to prove a point that cartridges, in the hands of the right person, are very deadly to wayyy beyond "normal" distances that people consider long range which are usually 300-400 yards. I"ll start off with the 25-06, 115g BTIp at 3100fps. .453 BC. This translates into 829ft lbs energy and still traveling 1802 FPS at 700 yards. Plenty bullet performance to get the job done with either a shoulder shot, or lung/hear shot. WHich is why these so called "expert" gunwriters continue to crack me up with there saying that a 25-06 is only a 300-400 yard deer gun. BOGUS! I"ve killed 3 black bears with my 25-06 and all 3 of them were over 375 yards or farther and none have lived to tell about that. Black bears suppose to be big, mean, and tough. LIttle 115g bullet took care of all 3 of them, no problems what so ever. Next I'll give the .270 a shout. I'd pick it any day over a 30-06, but thas just because everyone and there dog likes the 30-06. Anyways, shooting a 150g BTip at 2950fps, .490 BC. This gives you 1008 ft lbs energy and still going 1740 FPS at 725 yards. In my book thats plenty for elk/deer size game. Put that bullet in the chest its mighty hard for it to go far....Next I'll give my 7 RM the go round. With a 168g VLD at 3000fps, BC of .643, I come up with 1108 ft lbs and 1724 FPS at 1000 yards even. I would not feel undergunned if the conditions were right and there was an elk/deer at 1000 yards. The numbers are still there, are they not?? Not saying I will shoot that far, but the cartridge/bullet combo has what it takes. Now I'll admit, this is the "far end" of the spectrum, but its still within guidelines. When people hunt and shoot long range, they take everything into consideration, starting with cartridge/bullet selection. Now if you go buy the so called expert gunwriters saying you need 2000 ft lbs of energy for elk, then yah you can cut those distances by couple hundred yards. But how many deer and elk died with the old cartridges and they never had anywhere close to the energy and velocity of todays cartridges. In my book, 1000ft lbs for elk is minimum and 800 ft lbs for deer is minimum. I've seen deer drop with 350-400 lbs of energy, and elk dropped with 800-900 ft lbs energy, so its all relevant and just goes to show that bullet placement is paramount and practice makes perfect!

 

[JD338]

Well said Remman. :wink:

JD338

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

JD- I dont know how or if theres an easier way to explain things. Its clearly not rocket science as you know...

 

[JD338]

remman,

You are spot on. Very few here fully comprehand LRH. I shot my bull elk at 350 yds, dropped him in his tracks. I put 300 rounds through my 338 RUM at ranges of 200, 300 and 400 yds from offhand, sitting, and prone positions prior to the hunt. When most hunters were sitting on their deck sipping a cool lemonaid, I was heating up the barrel of my 338 RUM.

I have shot Metallic Silhouette which includes shooting the 55 lb rams at 500 meters (547 yds) offhand without a sling. This doesn't mean that I would take a LR shot at a game animal offhand.


The bottom line is this:
Plan for the worst, Hope for the best.

JD338

 

[7mmfan]

7X7 elk......409 yards.....308 Norma magnum....180 Hornady BTs
Spike elk......325 yards.....308 Norma magnum....180 Hornady BTs
Cow elk......444yards.....270 WSM.....150 Partitions
Cow elk......419 yards......7mm Rem magnum...162 Hornady BTs

All one shot kills.....one must practice at the range they shoot at.

6X6 elk......75 yards......7mm Rem magnum...162 Hornady BTs
5X3 elk......125 yards.....7mm Rem magnum...162 Hornady BTs
Cow elk......357 yards......7mm Rem magnum...162 Hornady BTs

Two required two shots, one three....sometimes one is not enough on elk as all first shots were on the money...use the most gun you can shoot accurately on elk....tough animals that can go a long way.

 

[Jeff Olsen]

Dude, you're thick as a brick... the more you type, the plainer that becomes.

Not surprisingly, I disagree! But I'm not getting sucked into an insult match with you. I'll let future readers of this thread decide for themselves who's making better sense.

-jeff

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Jeff- Here is my 7mm RM the way it sits as of today. Just got a pic with the new scope attached. I had a MK4 4.5-14x50 M1, SF, 30 mm tube, duplex reticle. I traded it for a VX3 LR series, 6.5-20x50, SF, 30mm tube, fine duplex. I wanted more power and the finer duplex. Only thing is the scope is silver, but oh well. The white strip of paper is my drop chart corelated into MOA's from distances 200-800 yards in 25 yard increments. Also has wind MOA's for 10mph crosswind. Much more handy to have on the side of your rifle. That way when you see an animal, you range it, get down click your rifle, make any adjustments you may need and send teh bullet downrange. Pretty quick once you get use to it.

 

[Brad]

I'll let future readers of this thread decide for themselves who's making better sense.

-jeff

You can bullchit the fans but you can't bullchit the players...

 

[Jeff Olsen]

Jeff- Here is my 7mm RM the way it sits as of today. Just got a pic with the new scope attached. I had a MK4 4.5-14x50 M1, SF, 30 mm tube, duplex reticle. I traded it for a VX3 LR series, 6.5-20x50, SF, 30mm tube, fine duplex. I wanted more power and the finer duplex. Only thing is the scope is silver, but oh well. The white strip of paper is my drop chart corelated into MOA's from distances 200-800 yards in 25 yard increments. Also has wind MOA's for 10mph crosswind. Much more handy to have on the side of your rifle. That way when you see an animal, you range it, get down click your rifle, make any adjustments you may need and send teh bullet downrange. Pretty quick once you get use to it.

NIce! I've been moving my 30-06 towards being a longer-range rig (400 yards max for me)... It's a Remington M700 LSS that started out lfe as a mountain rifle, but when I shot that barrel out I had Pac-Nor put a 22" Supermatch sporter-profile tube on it. It's very accurate and that is one FAST barrel, giving me almost 3100 fps with 150's and 3000 fps with 165's. Anyway, I put a Jewell trigger in it last summer and have been considering what to do about the scope. Presently, it has my favorite hunting scope on it, a Leupold 2.5x8. I'm not looking to set up a rig that is as optimized for super-long-range as yours is so I'd want less scope than you are using, but more than I have on there now! I have been accumulating Preference Points for eastern Oregon mule deer (I have 7 friggin' points now!) so the idea is to optimize this rifle for that quarry.

My other rifle decision is whether to put a Jewell in my .338 WM, a M700 XCR. Part of me wants to, but I'm afraid to mess with the damn thing (very unlike me I might add!) It is an amazing rifle right out of the box. When I bought it, I was worried that the recoil would prevent me from shooting it well and I even told the guys at the gunshop to just laugh at me now, get it over with, because I'll probably be dragging this thing back in in a few days with my tail between my legs! If I can't handle a rifle, if I can't shoot it a bunch, I don't want it; I like to put 300-500 rounds a year through each of my rifles, minimum. However, it didn't work out that way- the recoil doesn't bother me at all and the damn thing shoots like a house a'fire box stock, which is almost a bummer because I'd really rather have a laminate stock, and I'd really rather have it cut down to a 24" barrel... but it shoots way to well and has proven to be way to stable to go messing with it! So that's another rifle that I wouldn't mind a little more powerful scope on it, and a Jewell... but it probably won't happen any time soon.

I changed careers a few months ago; quit a perfectly good job to try something new (real estate) so I can't spend any money right now anyway! I appreciate you posting your photo's because it's fun to look at the money someone else is spending! And, should I get up towards Hermiston or you towards Eugene, let's hook up on our little bet.

As a side note, a guy in my elk camp who was a notorious misser of game put a Harris on his rifle and is 3 for 3 since then, an an antelope, mulie, and spike elk. He's a believer in them, now, for sure.

-jeff

 

[MattStevens]

It always makes my laugh when people post photos of thier rifles; it's just funny. :grin: Please, don't take offense.... We're all in this together.

 

[yeayow]

700 yards..... Lets see, that's roughly 40' short of a half mile. A Half mile is 880 yards which is means 700 is 560 ft short of a half mile. I don't like rem's opinion of overloadind rounds in MY opinion but if you practice and can back up what you shoot at, is that any worse than only shoting at 100 yards and taking a 300 yard shot. Misqoutes about distance is why i say believe only partly what you read on the internet. If you regulary shoot at 400 yards and can hit what your aiming at, is it really that bad to take a 600 yard shot. I won't because the furthest my range will go to is 220 yards. He could be full of schitt but IF you always practices at these distances and hit what your aiming at I don't see a problem. Inconsistencies are always ampified at a greater distance, but if you can than you can. I tend to disbelieve the great distance shots but i'm not the long distance shooter so why should i not accept it. The only thing I have to say on it is if you practice it than do it but never say its ok for every one because not every one can practice and prove themselves at that distance nor does it make how you reload right. Long distance expert does not make a reloading expert.

 

[MattStevens]

Thanks for the correction on the math, you are absolutly correct. I did it quickly in my head and I was mistaken. Verification is a good thing.

 

[Jeff Olsen]

I'll let future readers of this thread decide for themselves who's making better sense.

-jeff

You can bullchit the fans but you can't bullchit the players...

I think the whole key to our debate is the term "marginal". That was what set you off. I think most anyone reading our thread will see that indeed, the type of hunting you are describing pushes things, SEVERAL things, to the MARGINs. The very edge (MARGIN) of bullet performance. The very edge (MARGIN) of being able to keep it in the kill zone. The very edge (MARGIN) of disaster if the animal should get bit on the ass by a horsefly or the wind should gust. I stand by my use of the term and think I'm right so... we'll let 'em decide for themselves.

-jeff

 

[Jeff Olsen]

It always makes my laugh when people post photos of thier rifles; it's just funny. :grin: Please, don't take offense.... We're all in this together.

I'd probably succumb to the temptation of posting a couple photos of my rifles, at some point, if I knew HOW!

My .325 WSM Browning BLR is purty enough to post...

-jeff

 

[Brad]

[

I think the whole key to our debate is the term "marginal". That was what set you off.

-jeff

Nope, what set me off is your dogmatic assertions based on nothing other than what you can gather out of thin air, based on zero experience.

As I said, you're thick as a brick. Actually, even thicker than I'd originally imagined...

 

[MattStevens]

Hey Jeff,

Don't admit to getting "set off." Nothing here can't be settled by a little Jack Daniels and the end of a long Friday. Cheers my friend.

 

[Jeff Olsen]

Hey Jeff,

Don't admit to getting "set off." Nothing here can't be settled by a little Jack Daniels and the end of a long Friday. Cheers my friend.

No worries; I run a pretty even keel. Appreciate the thought, though!

-jeff "the brick" olsen