Expansion, Penetration, Velocity, Energy

[wildgene]

...well, velocity starts changing when the bullet leaves the barrel, not much I can do about that, but when it comes to "expansion, penetration, energy", what I want in a bullet is "consistent terminal ballistics", not much interested in a bullet that works perfectly when fired @ a 'target' @ 3100fps standing exactly 286yds. away, but may explode on a rib @ 50yds. or fail to open altogether @ 400yds. I want a bullet that will expand, retain enough integrity & weight to penetrate thru whatever it needs to go thru, while dumping most of it's energy in the form of hydrostatic shock, whether it's a bull @ 30yds in the black timber or a mule deer 450yds. across the canyon...

 

[Gunner46]

The idea behind this thread was brought about after having a discussion with a co-worker/reloader/ hunter. He expressed his dismay that his preferred 30 cal Mag had failed to make a complete pass through with his chosen bullet. Stated he was looking for a load that would give him some more velocity.

At over 3100fps he has plenty of velocity and I suggested that with the bullet he was wanting to use he should actually look at slowing it down, if more penetration was his goal. You would have thought I'd just blasphemed all that was holy ! He never caught on to the concept that he was pushing the bullet too fast, thus causing it to expand very rapidly and creating more resistance, which caused the bullet to loose penetration.

He was clearly confusing energy as the sole factor in determining bullet dynamic. I have no doubt in my mind that if he would back off a couple '00's of fps he would still get the same expansion, it would just occur later in the delivery after the bullet had met less resistance on initial impact and achieve better penetration.

 

[BF375]

First, there is no expanding bullet that is a guaranteed pass though on all game animals all of the time under all conditions

That said if he wants a higher likelihood of exits from his 300 magnum he does not need less velocity....he needs a bullet built for deeper penetration.

 

[tddeangelo]

Thank goodness for this discussion. Now after all of these years, the guilt that I felt for killing Mule Deer, with a 300B, and 300 WM, was misplaced. Thank you all!!! :grin:

Yep makes me feel better using the 35Whelen/AI with the 225gr PT this year to kill the doe I harvested.

Tom I never have to worry about recovery of an animal here in MD since the Law states I have that right but I still need permission to trespass and have to contact the land owner first if they refuse then I just call for back up LEO or DNR.

The biggest problem is unethical hunters who will claim your kill if it runs out of sight and you have to track it any distance.
Sorry if I got off topic.

Even LE is not permitted to enter private property if permission by the owner is not granted, even for the purpose of retrieving a downed deer.

The most the Game Commission can and will do, if they even have anyone available to do this (they don't an abundance of WCO's), is send the uniformed officer with the hunter to speak to the owner in the hopes of bolstering the hunter's case to the owner.

In the end, private property rights are the last word. If the owner says no, the deer goes unrecovered.

I've had it happen. It's not a pleasant situation.

 

[Gunner46]

Allow me to jump back to Polaris' reply. First I want to say that you chose a good baseline for comparison. It's what has seemed to be deemed the American baseline for decades.

That said, I've witnessed a subtle change over the past few years, and it's all based on a better available bullet.

When I 1st started hunting an '06 was "THE GO TO" for anything and every thing. Next came the belted Mag phase. We were still in the 'soft cup & core' realm, with only the Nosler PT being a readily available premium.

The advent of some better quality bullets changed the '06 minimum and shifted toward something like a 270. Not a huge change, but still a shift.

Next came the Solid base, then BT's , A-Frames, and the Mono's. New powders came out as well. Now the ballgame was forever changed!

A 7mm08 with a 120 BT, or TSX, can be launched equal to the level of a 25/06 !! A 338Fed will march step to a 30/06 with equal bullet weights. A 260 is being used regularly as an effective elk round.

The Why is better components, the freely shared knowledge via forums none better than this one, and hunters whom have taken the time to learn.

 

[truck driver]

Gunner64, I can relate with what your saying with first learning to hunt in the 1960s as a teenager the only center fire rifle in the house was my Dad's pre war M70 30-06 and it was like a magic wand that killed everything and the 180gr core-loc was the only ammo he would use with an occasional 220gr core-loc and Win sliver tip. First rifle was a Marlin-30-30 which I didn't like since I had been shooting the 30-06 it seemed like a pop gun and a short range gun 100yds max. When I was old enough I bought my own 30-06 and then started reloading using Sierra Game Kings and killed my first Buck with it and my reloads. I thought the 150gr bullets were too light for deer since there was always a lot blood shot ruined meat. Bullet development was in full swing in the 1970's and I discovered the 165gr bullets designed for hunting and thought I had gone to heaven. Now a had a heavy enough bullet to keep deer down with out ruining a lot of meat and shoot flatter than the old core-loc. Hornady came out with the innerlock and that was all the bullet I needed they provide good expansion and dumped all the energy in the animal so I never looked at anything else even though Speer and Nosler was making good bullets they were too expensive for my budget at that time. Up until 5 years ago I never loaded anything but Hornady and Sierra and not until I got the 35Whelen and then the 35Whelen/AI did I start to use Nosler rifle bullets. SPS selling seconds is what helped me to discover Nosler bullets.
The cup and core bullets worked great when you kept the velocity in the right range where it didn't cause the bullet to over expand and disintegrate when it hit bone and flesh causing a flesh wound not penetrating and transferring the energy to the animal causing sever shock and trauma. The magnum stage is what generated interest for better bullets that would hold together at higher velocities.
Though I have owned 2 magnum caliber rifles I have never killed anything with them and only have one left. The 30-06 spoiled me at a young age and now the 35Whelen/AI is taking over where it left off and is just more of a good thing IMO. Had I lived out west it might have turned out different for me as far as caliber choice but here in the east a good 308 would work for everything and the 30-06 is just that much more IMO. :grin:

 

[Blkram]

The idea behind this thread was brought about after having a discussion with a co-worker/reloader/ hunter. He expressed his dismay that his preferred 30 cal Mag had failed to make a complete pass through with his chosen bullet. Stated he was looking for a load that would give him some more velocity.

At over 3100fps he has plenty of velocity and I suggested that with the bullet he was wanting to use he should actually look at slowing it down, if more penetration was his goal. You would have thought I'd just blasphemed all that was holy ! He never caught on to the concept that he was pushing the bullet too fast, thus causing it to expand very rapidly and creating more resistance, which caused the bullet to loose penetration.

He was clearly confusing energy as the sole factor in determining bullet dynamic. I have no doubt in my mind that if he would back off a couple '00's of fps he would still get the same expansion, it would just occur later in the delivery after the bullet had met less resistance on initial impact and achieve better penetration.

I had an interesting conversation with an old customer of mine the other day that had a so what similar theme to it...less velocity, better penetration.

He called to ask me about the performance that I was getting with the 376 Steyr, and why I chose to build a rifle in this chamfering.

He has gone through both the 375 H&H and the Ruger, but as he does not like recoil, but likes the caliber, was looking for a less powerful option, while still having good power, frontal area and penetration, for North American game. We talked about why the cartridge was created...to provide better penetration on very large and dangerous game with soft points, in more compact rifles (Scout rifle), utilizing a more efficient cartridge. Why load down the H&H to get 2300 fps in the bigger case and a longer, heavier rifle (as many PH's have done for years when circumstances called for it), when a better tool (rifle and cartridge) could be made to provide the same results? Not everyone needs the bigger, badder tool all the time. Nor wants what everyone else has. This makes the 376 Steyr a great alternative. Plus, it is much milder on the shoulder!

He has commissioned his 376 custom rifle.

 

[SJB358]

...well, velocity starts changing when the bullet leaves the barrel, not much I can do about that, but when it comes to "expansion, penetration, energy", what I want in a bullet is "consistent terminal ballistics", not much interested in a bullet that works perfectly when fired @ a 'target' @ 3100fps standing exactly 286yds. away, but may explode on a rib @ 50yds. or fail to open altogether @ 400yds. I want a bullet that will expand, retain enough integrity & weight to penetrate thru whatever it needs to go thru, while dumping most of it's energy in the form of hydrostatic shock, whether it's a bull @ 30yds in the black timber or a mule deer 450yds. across the canyon...

You said it much better than I could mumble the words :lol:

Merry Christmas

 

[truck driver]

I don't mean to drag on about the load and bullet I used this year to kill the doe But after reading all the answers over numerous times I can now relate to what everyone was telling me. Tough not the heaviest bullet for caliber the 225gr PT is probably the best preforming design and weight for the 35 Whelen/AI since it has everything in the title of this post.

 

[Guy Miner]

The idea behind this thread was brought about after having a discussion with a co-worker/reloader/ hunter. He expressed his dismay that his preferred 30 cal Mag had failed to make a complete pass through with his chosen bullet. Stated he was looking for a load that would give him some more velocity.

At over 3100fps he has plenty of velocity and I suggested that with the bullet he was wanting to use he should actually look at slowing it down, if more penetration was his goal. You would have thought I'd just blasphemed all that was holy ! He never caught on to the concept that he was pushing the bullet too fast, thus causing it to expand very rapidly and creating more resistance, which caused the bullet to loose penetration.

He was clearly confusing energy as the sole factor in determining bullet dynamic. I have no doubt in my mind that if he would back off a couple '00's of fps he would still get the same expansion, it would just occur later in the delivery after the bullet had met less resistance on initial impact and achieve better penetration.

I wondered what the heck prompted this thread...

In this case, the .300 not penetrating all the way through... It's either your solution: slow the bullet down. Or, use a bullet intended for .300 Win mag velocity.

My .300 Win mag bullet was the 180 gr Nosler Partition. I haven't used a .300 mag afield in many years, but if I did, that's exactly the bullet I'd start with, again.

Guy

 

[tddeangelo]

I use that bullet in my 300WSM as well as my 300H&H. Both are 3000fps, within +/- 25fps (WSM is a hair slower, but that's a good round number that's close).

I've killed about a half dozen deer with those two rifles combined, all with 180PT's, and they do a heck of a nice job. Ranges were 45 yards out to 200-225 yards. Nice hole in, big hole out, lots of organ damage in between.

 

[salmonchaser]

Sounds like your buddy needs to shoot partitions the variables, well documented above, are innumerable.
On deer, I don't much care about pass through. I started shooting ballistic tips for deer when they came out and never looked back. Just depends if they exit or not, but no deer I've hit with one got away.
I've played around with elk bullets a little more in the Jarrett. With both partitions and AB I'll get one shoulder and an exit out to about 300. Two shoulders, about half that. No bones 1/4 away at 350 yards; liver lungs, lower neck under the chin and out between the eyes.
Just so many variables.


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[Blkram]

Elk have the densest bone of any animal in North America; this is why you have experienced these results.

An old magazine article (do not remember magazine, author or date at the moment) did a penetration study on rifle and bullet combinations that would reliably penetrate the heaviest part of an elk's shoulder bone. The results were a 225 gr bullet fired out of a 338 Win Mag. Lesser bullets would break the shoulder bone, but would not continue to penetrate through to the vitals every single time. Again, this is for the heaviest part of the elk's shoulder bone, not the less dense parts of the bone as you get higher up to the scapula. This would be just above the elbow joint closest to the heart of the elk.

My experience in harvesting two dozen elk with rifles chambered from the 6.5x55 to the 376 Steyr has shown that the 338 Win Mag to be the most immediately effective on elk, especially those bulls all worked up by the rut. Other cartridges used include the 270 WSM, 280 Rem, 7MM Rem Mag and STW, 300 WSM, 358 Win and 35 Whelen. My preferred shot on elk is the double lung, and offside shoulder if possible dependent upon their position, as experience has shown that they do not run as far after the initial shot, and if they move as I pull the trigger and I do hit the onside shoulder, the bullet from the larger more powerful cartridges will break the lighter bone higher up on the shoulder and still make it into the lungs.

I have harvested 5 bison over the years with the 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag and 376 Steyr. While bison are much larger than elk, their bone is not as dense as elk. I have found that the 338 and 376 are more effective on these animals that can weigh up to 2500 lbs. A large bull can be extremely hard to impress with a lighter weight bullet.

 

[69gto]

Blkram, I totally agree, the .338 or .340 WBY. with any weight Partition is a real elk rifle and I have been hunting them with every thing from .270 to .378 WBY. For 55 years. Another over looked bullet that works very well is a 200g Nosler BT at 3000 to 3300 fps.

 

[truck driver]

You know it is amazing how closely this thread follows another one started quite a long while ago.
Brown Bear Bullets For The 35 Whelen.
Yep Earl's/35Whelen's post on the 35 Whelen and other calibers used on Brown Bears in AK.
Some times you just can't get enough of some good reading.

 

[pharmseller]

Elk have the densest bone of any animal in North America; this is why you have experienced these results.

An old magazine article (do not remember magazine, author or date at the moment) did a penetration study on rifle and bullet combinations that would reliably penetrate the heaviest part of an elk's shoulder bone. The results were a 225 gr bullet fired out of a 338 Win Mag. Lesser bullets would break the shoulder bone, but would not continue to penetrate through to the vitals every single time. Again, this is for the heaviest part of the elk's shoulder bone, not the less dense parts of the bone as you get higher up to the scapula. This would be just above the elbow joint closest to the heart of the elk.

My experience in harvesting two dozen elk with rifles chambered from the 6.5x55 to the 376 Steyr has shown that the 338 Win Mag to be the most immediately effective on elk, especially those bulls all worked up by the rut. Other cartridges used include the 270 WSM, 280 Rem, 7MM Rem Mag and STW, 300 WSM, 358 Win and 35 Whelen. My preferred shot on elk is the double lung, and offside shoulder if possible dependent upon their position, as experience has shown that they do not run as far after the initial shot, and if they move as I pull the trigger and I do hit the onside shoulder, the bullet from the larger more powerful cartridges will break the lighter bone higher up on the shoulder and still make it into the lungs.

I have harvested 5 bison over the years with the 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag and 376 Steyr. While bison are much larger than elk, their bone is not as dense as elk. I have found that the 338 and 376 are more effective on these animals that can weigh up to 2500 lbs. A large bull can be extremely hard to impress with a lighter weight bullet.

Here's an interesting test. Pay attention to total penetration and retained weight.


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... 11445019/1


Some bullets are tougher than you think.




P

 

[SJB358]

That's a great bullet test. Ton of work went into that.

 

[Blkram]

Yes, a great test that shows good results on the heavy bone such as that found just above the elbow of any large animal. It is great the people here, and on other threads, take the time to not only perform such great and educational experiments, but that they also take the time to share the results with the rest of us!

Not to take anything away from their results; But, a cows' bone is not as dense (read tough) as an elk or a bison's.

The test I referred to in my above post, was performed on elk bone. I will need to find some time one day to find that article and share the source for you to read. It was done in a similar fashion as the one shared by pharmseller. thanks!

 

[salmonchaser]

About 1981 I shot a spike bull with an 8mm mag, 220 grain hornady bullet smack on the biggest part of the shoulder joint. 80 yards. Stopped that bullet cold. Disintegrated the bone from joint to joint. Knocked him down when he tried to get up I shot him in the head. Necropsy showed only a few small fragments entered the body cavity.
I've seen elk taken with just about everything from a 250-3000 on up. I like my 338 Jarrett and 250 grain PT or AB. A shoulder and lungs will pretty well anchor them.


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[pharmseller]

Not to take anything away from their results; But, a cows' bone is not as dense (read tough) as an elk or a bison's.

I'm intrigued by this statement. Bison I could see, but cows are bigger than elk. I would imagine a larger animal would have tougher bones to support the greater weight.




P