Grizzles/Handguns

[Europe]

Reading the thread in other topics prompted this thread.

I have communicated with Cheyenne and she prefers a lever action carbine rifle to a handgun for bear protection, and she is licensed to carry a handgun. I also noticed Rodger thought he might prefer the Remington Shotgun with slugs---anyway----

If you were allowed to do so, or perhaps you are currently doing so, what Handgun do you, or would you, carry for "bear protection" when hiking, fishing, camping, or hunting

Make, model, caliber and load

 

[truck driver]

Though I don't hunt in areas where the big bears roam I would want the biggest caliber I could handle and shoot accurately. BFR makes some of the biggest revolvers in 45-70 but would probably prefer a Ruger in 460 loaded with hard cast lead slugs.

 

[Guy Miner]

Good article here re handguns for defense against big bear:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

Also worth remembering that not long ago, famous Alaskan bear guide Phil Shoemaker used his 9mm semi-auto at extremely close range to kill an aggressive, big grizzly... He did have some seriously stout heavy-bullet ammo in it, and is very experienced with the big bears...

Me? I'm not around grizzly much, but when I have carried for bear defense, I've made sure I'm carrying my .44 mag S&W double action revolver, 5" barrel, loaded stout, 300 gr bullets. I have a .500 magnum, with 440 grain bullets, but it's too big & clumsy to get into action in a hurry.

Am also quite a believer in bear spray, simply from what I've heard and read, re the experiences of others.

Regards, Guy

 

[DrMike]

I have carried a Model 94 chambered in .356 Winchester and a Winchester 1300 Camp Defender at various times in the past when fishing/hiking in grizzly territory. In these latter years, if I carry anything for defence, I'm more likely to carry bear spray than a firearm. More often than not, I don't carry anything, depending upon watching where I'm walking and staying alert to my surroundings. When a bear is spotted, I make certain to let the bear know where I am and move deliberately away from the animal. A close friend has obtained his permit to carry a sidearm in the bush, but I really don't qualify, so I haven't even made the effort. When travelling into the far north, I often will have one of my lever guns in the truck. If I'm crossing the International border (i.e., into Alaska), I will leave the firearms at home as it is too cumbersome to move them back and forth across the border.

 

[Anonymous]

I've got to report that after seeing more than a few grizzlies, I don't have a lot of faith in any handgun to stop one and much prefer carrying a rifle or a shotgun when in the backcountry. I've been charged once, and was darn happy to have had a .375 even though I didn't have to pull the trigger.

That said- there are just times when carrying a long gun is simply too impractical- like fishing or archery hunting or packing meat, etc. For those times I've recently acquired a S&W 329 in .44 Mag loaded with pretty generic 240gr JSP. Heavier loads are common in the .44, but eclipse my ability in such a light revolver.

It's light and stays out of the way in a chest holster while I'm doing other activities that don't involve a firearm. I don't carry it when I'm hunting with a long gun though. I always have a can of bear spray in camp, which I think is a good option to deter nuisance bears who are simply hanging around trying to get into stuff. If they act aggressive though- it's straight to the gun. I guess I'm not terribly romantic when it comes to bears...LOL.

I do think that it's worth mentioning that most bear encounters resolve with a bear hauling butt as fast as they can once they figure out you're a person and most problems can be avoided by using your head and being savvy in bear country regarding clean camping and so forth. I worry much more about surprising cow moose with calves and getting stomped.

 

[Thebear_78]

I have two sidearms for bear defense.

Smith & wessen 329 NG IN 44 mag. It has great weight to power ratio while still being controllable. I use a 300gr WLNGC cast bullet at a modest 1050-1100 fps. Keeping the speed down keeps recoil manageable, and cast bullets don't require the higher speeds of jacketed bullets, they penetrate very well at these speeds.



The second is a glock 20 in 10mm. Loaded with 200gr TMJ at 1250fps. It holds 15 rounds, has great recovery for quick follow up shots, penetrates like crazy, and is easier to make 5-6 hits in time you might get 2 in the 44. I actually have two of these, one on permanent loan to my dad.



I carry them both in a chest holster and couldn't think of a better setup for field carry.





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[Dwh7271]

When I travel to such areas bear spray and my G29. 10mm Glock(which is pretty much always with me)
If I have space to carry without worrying about it, G20 (10mm Glock) or 44 Ruger.

 

[Thankful Otter]

I am with Dr Mike and Hodgeman, I am not a big advocate of handguns and bears. I think spray is a better option, but we use Canadian inuit dogs as bear protection. They will distract them and then run therm off. They also are helpful when hunting the white bear, whether with tranquilizers or bullets, by holding them in place. As Dr Mike and Hodgeman has pointed out most bear encounters are easily resolved, with a little common sense.

Hodgeman, I do agree with you about stumbling onto a cow moose with calves and in our neck of the woods we also have bears with an identity crisis ( the grolars ) and they can be a bit more unpredictable

 

[JD338]

My choice is my S&W 629 3" barrel 44 Rem Mag loaded with hard cast bullets.

JD338

 

[Guy Miner]

Nobody has commented on it, so perhaps no one has bothered to read the link I posted to the article by Randy Garrett, who devised very specialized .45/70 rifle loads and .44 mag handgun loads for dealing with big bear, up close.

Honestly, it's well worth the read: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

And there's more on his site as well. Great stuff, even though Randy is no longer producing the bullets & ammo himself.

Regards, Guy

 

[5shot]

44mag, 45 Colt or 454. Maybe a 475, but follow up shots would be slow. If weight wasn't a concern, an 870 with Breneke slugs would be my pick for up close.

 

[Anonymous]

Nobody has commented on it, so perhaps no one has bothered to read the link I posted to the article by Randy Garrett, who devised very specialized .45/70 rifle loads and .44 mag handgun loads for dealing with big bear, up close.

Honestly, it's well worth the read: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

And there's more on his site as well. Great stuff, even though Randy is no longer producing the bullets & ammo himself.

Regards, Guy

Guy- thanks for the post. I've read several of Garrett's pieces over the years. My chief gripe is that his ammo is virtually unavailable in my AO.

I've tried a local brand of .44 with a 300gr hard cast boolit, it was loaded too hot and extracts only with a Leatherman ( ). I'm hoping our local ammo situation improves and I can try some different types. Right now my choices are JSP and JHP, both 240gr.

 

[salmonchaser]

I read the article, thought it well thought out and supported.
I've carried everything up to the 375, my personal favorite is the .45/70 guide gun.
It's a rare day I don't see grizzly, the most I've dealt with in a single day was 22.
I always have a gun with me, the 454 if I'm going to a place where encounters are generally few and the Bears respectful. The rifle if I'm going to a place where the Bears are more temperamental.
Bear spray is always on my waders and in my boats.
The critical thing about long guns is having a proper sling. I use a tactical sling that keeps the rifle tight against my chest. I can mend leaders, release fish, what ever I need to do.
I'm running 300 grain and 400 grain barns busters pistol/ rifle. We also have several 870s around. 00 buck followed by slugs.


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[Thankful Otter]

Guy, I did read it and apologize for not saying anything about it. thank you for the link it was a good read.

What I should have said earlier is I believe Randy in the "final thoughts" part of the article is agreeing with Dr Mike and salmonchaser in preferring a lever action rifle to a hand gun. . And I agree with Dr Mike, Salmonchaser and Randy ---sort of--356, 45/70, 348 different calibers but all lever action rifles.

Like Salmonchaser, I have experienced a lot of bears and still agree with hodgeman and Dr Mike, all you need 95 % of the time is common sense and you will have no problem

 

[Thebear_78]

Suprized to hear you carry buckshot. From my experience it's almost useless when it comes to big bears, and nearly useless on small ones!

I have always contended that shotguns are for birds! That said up close the hard cast slugs, like breneke, seem to be effective. I'd rather have that 45/70 any day of the week.

The only times I have witnessed buckshot used on bears I was sorely unimpressed. Neither time was it even close to effective. Both times the bear had to be put down with a rifle.

One time on a wounded grizzly, 2 rounds of 00 buck had almost no effect, none of the pellets doing any vital damage and stopping in the shoulder and back muscles. A 270 gr 375 h&h put it down with a center mass shot, breaking a shoulder and part of the spine.

Second was a black bear over bait. Again 00 buck, 5.5' black bear shot broadside and again in hip back leg as it ran away. A long crappy tracking job later shutting and very much alive bear was put down with a 30/06.

I generally carry my 375 RUM with the light mounted on it for dedicated bear defense but a short lever gun would be perfect. I've been toying with putting together an AR upper in 450 bushmaster or 50 boewolf, that would be a handy camp/backup gun.


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[Blkram]

As far as the original question for this thread, my choice for a handgun for bear protection would be the 6" S&W Model 57 in 41 Rem Mag loaded with Winchester's 240 gr Platinum Tip HP's. Same bullet weight as the 44 Mag, with less recoil and better penetration. The 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk with the same ammo would be good too, but cannot be reloaded as quickly if required. Unfortunately, under normal circumstances here in Canada, this is not an option for us.

For years I have packed my Marlin 375 Winchester loaded with 220 gr Hornady's and them moved up to my Browning BLR in 358 Win loaded with 220 gr Speer HotCor's. Both rifles had low powered Leupolds in QD rings for quick changes to open sights as/if needed. My new Marlin in 41 Rem Mag using the same ammo mentioned above would be handy too.

I also have a Benelli M2 loaded with slugs as another option. Still need to acquire a Model 870 Tactical; reason to follow...

I am trained and certified in Wildlife Monitoring (bear watch) here, and under our rules, can only use pump action shotguns (reliability, and Remington Model 870 specified) equipped with open sights (front bead only not allowed), capable of holding at least 4 slugs (no buckshot allowed due to unreliable penetration and less than optimum energy transference to the animal if lethal deterrent is required) in the magazine.

With this certification, I do qualify under our rules for a carry permit for this occupation, and must use a double action revolver in a cartridge capable of personal protection (41 and 44 Mags preferred) that must be carried in a hip holster that is not concealed, during on duty hours only. Pistols do not qualify, single action revolvers will only be acceptable if able to pass competency test incl/ timing and accuracy, 357 Mag and smaller does not qualify (not enough energy) and larger caliber so such as the 460 and 500 do not qualify (handguns too heavy to quickly get into action and cartridges too powerful for most people to handle properly). Proficiency testing must be requalified annually, and includes moving and stationary targets within certain time limits, for accuracy. Some of the tests include reloading the firearm and shooting the same target again during a particular time trial. On the one moving target, bear charging you at 35 kmh, you must place so many shots in the vitals within 3 seconds from a holstered starting position. Tougher than it sounds.

I would have to look and find a couple of recent articles on bears and handguns for protection. I was impressed with the very experienced authors opinions and thoughts relating to this particular topic...

In most cases, a calm and cool demeanour in a bear encounter will result in the bear leaving the area and not needing to actually use a deterrent, but for those other times...

Bear spray was given a strong argument, but you do not always get to use it effectively if the wind direction is not right in your particular circumstance where a bear may be charging you from the upwind direction, or it is in your pack vs on your hip or on your shoulder strap. Using bear spray must be practiced to acquire proficiency in getting it into action, and using it effectively.

A rifle was a better choice than a handgun as any big game rifle typically carried hunting in bear country has more energy than any handgun or shotgun; but is harder to get into action quickly due to its size or being slung over the shoulder or carried in a scabbard pocket popular on some backpacks today, and the bullet must be placed accurately the first time as you may not get time for a second shot.

Shotguns are better for most people as they are easier to learn to use than a rifle and slugs placed on major bone at close distances are very effective. Buckshot may cover more area, but does not have the same energy per pellet and performance is diminished. Try 3" 000 buck on one inch plywood at 15 yards and you will find that you will get very few pellets that will completely penetrate the plywood. A 2 3/4" 1 oz slug will penetrate every time. Buckshot not recommended!

Handguns are quicker to get into action, but this skill requires regular practice to obtain efficiency, and again the bullet must be placed accurately. A good case was made that most people who carry handguns for bear defence do not practice regularly with their handguns, and that for most who do choose a 44 Mag, and that they cannot handle full power loads that they would typically load while afield, and only practice with lighter loads if they do practice. This equates to most being unable to get the handgun into action quickly enough, and then cannot place the bullet where it is required. It was suggested that most people would be better served with a 357 Mag, that they would practice and become proficient with (lighter handgun and more manageable recoil).

 

[Europe]

What great replies.

Thank you Guy for posting up that article

Blkram, what a very through post, thank you so much for taking the time to send that information along to us. It certainly makes sense that the wind would have a definite effect on whether or not to use bear spray and whether or not it would do you any good, excellent point.

Do any of you have and use the lever rifle made by Wild West for protection or hunting, it sounds interesting. I am afraid it would be a little to much rifle for me however

 

[Thebear_78]

I have handled many Wild West guns copilot and similar. My good friend used to run their shop for several years. There is very little practical difference between the copilot and a Marlin 1895 SBL. The few differences being fixed with some of the WWG after market parts. Specifically the trigger, ejector, and sights.

If the 45/70 is a little much for you the 1894 in 44 or 45 can be tricked out with an extended mag tube and good sights quite easily and a little feed work can get it feeding the longer 300gr hard cast loads. A 16" 44 mag set up that way would be very tough to beat.

This is one I used to carry quite a bit. I found I rarely hunted with it over my bolt guns so sold it off years ago. It's one of the many I have regretted selling over the years

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[salmonchaser]

The logic, such as it may be, is the bear will be coming at you, shoot him in the face taking out as much of his senses as possible.
As an adult, guiding, I've never had to destroy a bear. Close several times, lucky a couple more times.
As a kid, 6 years old, we were on a camping trip. Grizz woke us up tearing into the tent. Dads load of buckshot tore the Bears face off, sent him backwards, sprawling making a God awful sound, punctuated by the slugs in the magazine.
The overall effectiveness of 00 buckshot notwithstanding, some things just get burned into your brain.

That being said, I think it only appropriate as a consideration for a bear that's very close nose first. Regardless, I still prefer my .45/70.

The only thing I've learned for certain dealing with Grizz on a daily basis is this; if your weapon system is not instantly available you may as well leave it at home. If you are constantly setting it down to fish more comfortably, I would suggest changing your set up.
Situational awareness is key.
Sorry Guy, I got a little sideways here.
Grizz and handguns....
A couple of don't be this guy: ask your guide, who happened to have 20 years of swat experience, for a larger pair of waders. Why? Because the ones you gave me won't fit over my " tacticool thigh holster I bought for this trip.
Don't wear your pistol on your belt under your waders and then in your haste to get at it trip over the suspenders, fall on the rocks, hurt your hand and break your fly Rod.
Don't buy your first heavy handgun for your first trip to Alaska and leave it behind when you go to take a tundra dump.
Don't argue with a grumpy float plane pilot when he tells you to unload and put the gun in the float with the bear spray. Especially if you're the guy we had to fly an hour then hike an hour in, an hour back to retrieve said gun. No, don't be that guy.


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[Guy Miner]

Some funny, and great, stuff from you folks with lots of grizzly experience!