Grizzles/Handguns

[waveslayer]

It's hard to beat a .45-70. If you are restricted to a handgun, .44 mag to the .500 if you can handle it. I personally use a Glock 20 SF since I know the gun well, I have 15 shots and I can shoot it and control it to deliver devastating results

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

 

[Europe]

after reading salmonchasers post I was hoping to get Cheyenne to relate some of her stories, but she declined, but told me I was welcome to mention some of them if I wanted to do so

The three I liked best, was the guy who had bought a brand new 460 weatherby for a polar bear hunt and arrived with it still in the box and unfired. He wanted his first shot to be at the bear.

One fellow was fine until the bear turned and stood on his hind legs and then the fellow run without shooting.

One fellow was afraid of dogs and refused to ride in the dog sled

dont be those guys

 

[Thebear_78]

When I first moved to Alaska an older guide once told me that #4 buckshot to the face in the attemp to blind an incoming bear was his preferred bear defense.

While I can see some logic to this theory I still wouldn't recommend it. I have two specific reasons.

Reason one is when dealing with a charging bear defense scenario we are talking about very close ranges. Well under 20 yards and more likely half that distance or less. At these ranges the pattern is very small so the advantage of a bigger coverage than single projectile is minimal.

When shooting a charging bear their head is low as the charge in. My aiming point is the tip of thier nose, this is about perfectly center mass. With this aiming point, if your off even by several inches your still hitting bear. High you hit the neck/back/shoulder area, low you hit chest/neck. And either left or right and your hitting neck/shoulder area.

Any of these other areas the penetration of a single projectile makes them much more effective than any sized shot.

My last reason for not liking shot is that the blind bear theory depends on the bear charging you, its only hope of effectiveness requires a full frontal face delivery. What are you going to do when it's a partner or client being charged, or for any other reason you don't get that full frontal shot opportunity. What if a bear is in the act of mailing someone else, you want something that would maximize your ability to shoot said bear and not shoot your friend. There are many stories of people being shot by friends when attempting to kill a mauling bear.



I haven't done this much lately but in years past a very fun game we used to play at the range was a bear charge drill using a cheap remote controlled car, a wire rack and a balloon. Leaving the balloon roughly 3' off the ground. You would then turn you back, with gun holster for slung you started at 25 yards, a buddy raced the car at you and you turned drew and fired .

It is a humbling experience. A couple hints. The glock 20 can easily place 3x as many hits as a 44, and good luck getting more than one out of the bigger handguns. Also if you take a knee your hit percentage goes way up. You actually have to lead a charging balloon low as it approaches or you will miss high. Dropping to the knee levels the plane negating a lot of that lead.

I got that hint from an old guy who hunted Africa a lot and told me his guide once explained to him that was the best way to shoot charging lions. It also supposedly leaves you a smaller target for the approaching animal. I can't speak of its effectiveness on lions or bears but I can attest to it helping hit balloons.

Luckily I have never had to shoot a charging bear, I have came very close several times but always managed to talk them out of it. Situational awareness and actively avoiding those situations are much more effective than any amount of firepower.

Simple precautions, don't smell like food, keep a clean camp, make some damn noise, it's a hunters nature to sneak but you don't want to surprise a bear. Be observant, know your surroundings, a lot of times you can smell a bear or his kill before you see him. If you stumble upon a pile of dirt and brush with moose legs sticking out of it don't investigate, make a bunch of noise and get out of there.


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[DrMike]

Maybe getting off topic, but the previous couple of posts stimulate stories I've read or which were related to me. Likely you've seen similar stories, and they can be incredible. Big animals here in the north can induce a strange state of acting involuntarily while in a coma for many people.

I've been told of CFL linebackers who upon seeing their first moose come into the opening where they were stationed, chamber and eject a full magazine without ever firing a shot. When commenting to the guide that they could believe how the animal walked away when they had "shot him" so many times, the guide pointed to the ground where an entire magazine of ejected cartridges told a different story.

I have also had related to me how a large NFL linesman stood and fainted when the first moose came in as the guide grunted. Yeah, big animals induce strange behavior.

One of the most entertaining stories I ever read was of a US Senator who bought a 460 Weatherby for his first (and only, I imagine) brown bear hunt. Moving down river, the party passed a brown bear that charged into the stream chasing the boat. The Senator stood, threw his rifle into the river emphatically stating, "I declare this hunt at an end!" The guide shot the bear. Later, after retrieving the Senator's rifle and recovering the bear, the Senator claimed the bear because he had paid for the hunt. I suppose it was mounted and displayed in his office where he could tell visitors how brave he was. Yeah, those big bears can cause people to do strange things.

I confess that on my first grizzly hunt (which was taped), I was watching the unalarmed bear and hyperventilating. The friend (?) taping my adventure encouragingly whispered sotto voce, "Shoot him! Shoot him now!" I absolutely could not get my breath under control (and I was in good shape in those days). Eventually, the bear wandered off into the bush, having grown tired of presenting me with what was an absolutely perfect shot. Yeah, those big bears can induce strange behavior in neophytes.

 

[Europe]

Dr Mike, what is it about 460 weatherbys and the north lol ( your story and the one cheyenne told me )

Dr Mike, Bear78, Salmomnchaser, Blkram GREAT posts, with some good stories and good information, thanks guys

Guy thanks again for the link, good read

Kodiak--where did your post go? You also had a good story and if you have time post it back up

Bear78, thanks for the info about the Wild West. I know Brooke's dad had one and likes it. The reason it is now to much gun for me Bear78, is I am older than dirt and had to give up the wonderful sport of hunting

 

[Thebear_78]

Another 460 story. Years ago a local gun shop had a down stater call up and order a 460, set up with a scope and wanted them to site it in for him. He was going on a brown bear hunt and wanted the most powerful rifle out there. He had little xperiebce with hunting or rifles and when it came time to shoot his bear held the scope to his eye like a telescope.

I don't know howbadly he was hurt but if he doesn't have a pretty serious crescent scar I'd be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if he got a cool pirate style eye patch out of that deal!


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[truck driver]

April you still enjoy the out of doors and seeing wild life whether it's big games or birds in your back yard so I think your still hunting even though you don't carry a gun. :grin:

 

[Europe]

Rodger, thank you.

My "back yard" is currently the Mediterranean sea. We ( myself and three other widows who rotate sailing with me, as I dont sail alone anymore ) are currently in a port in Spain. We sail from Spain to France, to Italy to Greece and then start back, with zero time table. I hope to get back "home"( Arizona ) and see my children and grandchildren at Christmas. As I have mentioned before I miss hunting, especially bird hunting but the memories of past hunts with my husband are pressed lovingly between the pages of my mind.

But, I still enjoy hearing and reading about what you young people are doing and all the great hunts you are participating in---Dr Mike, I include you in this group as well, as you are still out there doing it, good for you!!!

 

[DrMike]

Dr Mike, I include you in this group as well, as you are still out there doing it, good for you!!!

Well, for sure it isn't because I'm young any longer! :shock: Something happened in the past several years and some old geezer took possession of my body! :twisted: I'm rather bummed at the thought. Nothing to do but to go hunting, I guess. :mrgreen:

 

[truck driver]

Rodger, thank you.

My "back yard" is currently the Mediterranean sea. We ( myself and three other widows who rotate sailing with me, as I dont sail alone anymore ) are currently in a port in Spain. We sail from Spain to France, to Italy to Greece and then start back, with zero time table. I hope to get back "home"( Arizona ) and see my children and grandchildren at Christmas. As I have mentioned before I miss hunting, especially bird hunting but the memories of past hunts with my husband are pressed lovingly between the pages of my mind.

But, I still enjoy hearing and reading about what you young people are doing and all the great hunts you are participating in---Dr Mike, I include you in this group as well, as you are still out there doing it, good for you!!!

Yep young at heart but the body doesn't know it. I'm not to far behind DrMike I just refuse to give up and hope to pass away sitting under a big Oak tree with my rifle across my lap on a deer trail.
Wait a minute 4 widows on a sail boat in the Med, boy that sounds like a wild bunch. :lol:

 

[Guy Miner]

These stories remind me of an experience a Marine buddy of mine related to me. He'd spent several years as a guide in Alaska.

One day he was told to guide a German client, Hans. In camp he attempted to strike up a conversation with the German, and every reply was a simple "ya." My buddy determined that Hans spoke no English! So, they headed out on horseback, for grizzly.

Spotted a bear! Stopped, tethered the horses, stalked closer, crawled to a fallen log, and rested their rifles on it. Glassed the bear, determined it was a good one, and in range. My buddy urged the German to shoot, and he did. Fur flew, the bear spun, then located the men and their horses and came towards them, fast. My buddy said he was on his rifle, a 7mm mag, looking through the scope and telling his client "Shoot Hans, shoot!"

No shooting was happening.

He glanced over, Hans was gone, heading for the horses! :grin:

My buddy shot the grizzly at Very Close range with his 7mm mag, killing him, just before the bear reached them....

He always did like that 7mm mag...

Guy

 

[hunternyny]

what a great thread, very enjoyable

Is Blkram, Dr Mike, Salmonchaser, Hodgeman, Bear78, and Guy Miner the only ones on the forum who have first hand grizzly stories. The ones posted are just great. Thanks for the stories

 

[salmonchaser]

The Bear makes several very good points, the most significant is training. I am also in complete agreement the theory of buckshot depends on the bear coming straight in, as it did that night in 1960.
Any other presentation would requiring shucking the buckshot and going to slugs. Hmmm, am I that good with an 870, under stress, I've trained the scenario but....
But to be honest our 870s don't get out much as I am much more comfortable with the rifle for the work at hand.
I also agree the 870 is a great option for ease of training.
I like the balloon idea and will incorporate it into this springs training. We roll a tire with a target in it. In addition I train our guides to shoot while advancing, the same drills I used in SWAT for hostage rescue. We incorporate an old manaquin, a fifty gallon drum with a gallon jug to represent the head of the bear.
The idea being what will you do if a bear gets to your client. Wouldn't do to shoot the client. Wouldn't do to just stand there waiting for a good shot. I also discuss this with any of my clients who happen to bring guns. We've all seen those videos where the PH is getting hooked or chewed on and the hunter does nothing.
My favorite training axiom is: the body can never go where the brain has never been.
Was I offended by the Bears surprise I carried 00 buck first, not at all. I've learned he knows what he's doing. Simply a matter now of re-evaluating my training vs. limited experience with what worked, once.
We're certainly going to discuss the slug vs buckshot slugs idea.

For us we use the same criteria as the parks department, a close contact is inside 50 yards and requires some action, generally speaking increasing distance. We document most of these to better learn and quite frankly to have a more defensible position should we ever have to shoot one.

What I know about Grizz is you never know for sure. I had them foaming at the mouth, huffing and jumping up and down on their front legs, only to turn and walk off. I've also had them walk by on the other side of a stream, apparently unimpressed then suddenly turn and come right at us.
In Katmai they generally don't run off, if they move off its more of gangster shuffle. Other areas, where they are hunted, it can be tough to get a picture they leave so quickly.

Since this subject always gets me fired up I'll add a few things to what the others have said.
Safety in numbers; I believe the report from Alaska is still valid in that there has not been a fatal bear attack on a group of three or more people.

Never turn and run, move together covey up. Bears hate whistles by the way.
Never let a person in your group who has gone into condition black to continue to yell " hay bear" when his normal baritone voice now sounds like a predator call. Been there dealt with that.
When your fixing your flies, lures etc, turn your back to the water while your retying. I think Bears hide and wait, giggling with anticipation for the moment I'm watching a client fight a fish while I'm trying to tie a blood knot.


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[truck driver]

This would be my choice if I would be fishing in Griz country but with a pistol grip instead of the full stock loaded with buck and ball but the slugs would be solids like a Brenneke or a lead sabot not the rifled slug version.

 

[Thankful Otter]

a couple people have been asking me to make a reference to Polar Bears. Same as Grizzly, they are curious, hungry, protecting their young, or surprised. We have used electric wire, flares, spray, dogs and firearms. IMHO a handgun is almost useless, especially if your surprised by a charging bear.

Refer to Blkram post earlier. try drawing your handgun, and hitting a moving target, where you want to hit the target, three times in three seconds. The nastier the weather the harder this becomes.

We find the white bear is more curious than the grizzly, but the grizzly, because of the habitat in which they live, literally show up, out of no where sometimes. Early bear detection for us is done by our Boykin which is always with us.

But once again I must say that Dr Mike and Hodgeman nailed it in their first posts, a little common sense goes a long way.

 

[Thebear_78]

I have been seriously considering making an AR carbine in 450 bushmaster specifically as a camp/bear defense gun. Especially when paired with a side folder stock it would fit well in a pack and running a single point harness it would sling well and out of the way.

Yukon huntress, with good training you would be surprised how proficient you can become with the handgun. Definitely I would prefer a rifle or even a slug loaded shotgun but ease of carry is important too. That's why I like the chest holster so much, above the waders, and out of the way of a pack frame. I also keep a knife and clippers connected to the holster for when fishing. A leather man can be handy to have on your chest!

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[Blkram]

First, Europe, while you might "feel" older than dirt, If you and three other ladies can manage a sailboat on the Med, I'm sure that a hunt for whitetail or other animals in Texas (not aware of seasons in Arizona as compared to what you see regularly in Texas on TV) from a ground blind would count as hunting for you and allow you still enjoy being out in the field hunting. And while the good Dr may not admit to this, I have told him on different occasions over the years that he is older than dirt...and rock!!! LOL....I know....I was being a little cheeky on those occasions, but we did have some good laughs!

Second, it is quite common for people to carry a mixed load of slugs and buckshot in their shotguns...and I admit to having done so in my earlier years as was recommended by those with more experience than I, until I started receiving formal training by experts in this area.

The point about aiming for the bear's face above is very good! The bear may not be charging you, or its charge path may vary due to obstacles between you and the bear as it charges, or its focus of attack may change during its charge as your companion may move and distract the bear during its charge, or if you have a dog with you and it distracts the bear during its charge (this actually happened to me) and you will be now shooting at a quartering or broadside bear. Aim for centre of mass at very least, but if at all possible, aim for major bone with first shot and make it count.

I like the recommendation of taking a knee, if time and circumstances permit, and the balloon training tip is a great idea.

I do not like pistol grips on shotguns. They do let you have great control of the firearm in various shooting positions. And need to be supported against the side of your body for best control, but will not allow you to aim properly. I have seen people try to mount these shotguns like a full stocked model during different training scenarios, and end up losing the firearm altogether during recoil, or end up having the firearm come back and catch them in the face or head! What do you think that the average person used to handling rifles or full stocked shotguns will do "instinctively" during an actual bear attack with a pistol gripped shotgun? Pistol grips are only useful in making the firearm easier to carry on your back while fishing or bowhunting, but not in actual use. Let the movie stars use them! (Or tactical professionals in close quarters scenarios)
Practice is key to successful action in real life situations.

 

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with the pistol grip on shotgun comment. I don't like them, it just turns the shotgun into an oversized and unwieldy pistol. To me, the shotgun offers the same advantage on bears as it does on flushing grouse- speed and instinctual shooting. You don't get that with a pistol grip on there, or at least I can't.

Regarding the idea of buckshot. I'm mixed on the subject- I understand the penetration idea of a slug, but it seems that a slug gun is just a poor rifle. A couple of guys i know who've had to shoot bears, report it was a near contact event. One man shot a bear with it's mouth literally on the muzzle. At that point most of the details of the gun are moot.

The other idea worth considering is that where bears are hunted they are typically very skittish of folks. We had a bear in camp one night snuffing around. I just let out a low "hey bear" from the tent and he hauled butt out of there so fast he fell end over end down the bank into the river. The worst bear experience was on Anchorage's Coastal Trail- no hunting and we were stalked by a bear for several hundred yards in a group. The area bio shot it a couple days later climbing into the passenger window of his truck.

 

[Thankful Otter]

I also do not like the pistol grip on a shotgun

Bear78, I am sure you are correct sir and I have no doubt that you and Gil can dispatch a bear with a handgun, I meant no disrespect. I need to watch what and how I say things. In my case I am not always able to get my mittens off in three seconds, so I should have said, unlike some of the fellows here, I am not as proficient at using a handgun and therefore prefer a lever action rifle, but that is just because of my inabilities and noting else.

As mentioned above, we have 4 trained bear dogs, a Boykin and three Canada Inuit Dogs, which provide early warning and distraction,

Blkram, another good informative post, thanks and I am glad to find out that I am not the only one who jokes with Dr Mike. He is definitely a good sport

 

[Thebear_78]

I met a guy a couple years ago that killed a large brown bear near portage just south of anchorage with a 12ga loaded with 3" steel BB. The barrel was basically touching the bear as he shot, it actually ran right into the side of their boat and was in the 14' boat with them as it was shot. At those kind of ranges everything out of a shotgun acts as a slug. I'd just prefer not to get that close before a load of shot is effective.

If anyone had seen how poorly 00 buck performed on a medium sized grizzly a buddy of mine shot they would never dream of using it. Extremely poor penetration, nothing making it thru the muscle of the neck/shoulders. Barely an inch of penetration.

Shotguns are very versatile, several non lethal options to scare away a camp pest and good hardcast slug at <20 yards can be effective, and I'd take it over any pistol given the choice. Either is a poor replacement for a rifle.


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