Grizzles/Handguns

[DrMike]

Add one more that does not like pistol grips on a shotgun. A Defender type shotgun is far preferable if a shotgun is in the equation. Cheyenne has an excellent point when mentioning the need to remove mitts before using the firearm. That complicates handgun use. I do like my Model 94s. Truthfully, I don't run into all that many bears; I usually see them at a distance, giving me time to avoid them. However, it still remains true that it only takes one successful bear attack (ambush) to ruin your day.

 

[truck driver]

I can understand the dislike of a pistol grip on a shotgun since it does take extra training to use and get use to. One needs strong hands and arms to handle the recoil and there are better options for most people. The TV cowboys are shooting blanks and never experience the energy that is unleashed when the gun with a real load is discharged and a assault style stock would be better or shorter standard style.

 

[salmonchaser]

I carried a pistol grip shot gun on our swat team for a while. A secondary weapon primarily used for breaching. Impossible to qualify with and just plain uncomfortable to fire.
T.Bear78. We have a 450 bushy. With out question the most popular weapon system for our guides. Most of them can get five or six hits as fast as I can get two with the Marlin.
I love it.


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[Europe]

Blkram, thank you kind sir. You are correct, I could blind hunt and actually do still try to get in one pheasant hunt a year, but my mountain climbing days have come to an end. My last big game hunt was with my grandson and we hunted elk on the indian reservation in Arizona. I knew after that hunt, a blind or "flat land" hunt was all that was in my future.

I only tired a pistol grip once and it nearly broke my arm, therefore I am another who would pass.

Thank you cheyenne, I know you did not want to post again, but I thought since the topic was about bears, that your experience with the white bear might be of interest to the forum.

One of the things that strikes me is that on a forum with this many members, such a small, very small number of gentlemen are regularly in Grizzly country. Dr Mike, salmonchaser, bear-78, hodgeman, Blkram, Guy Miner, I have enjoyed reading the post's, and have learned from these posts but surprised at the small number of members who hunt daily in Grizzly country.

Rodger, for a group of over the hill females, we do have a few good laughs each day, usually at our own expense, but once in a while at the expense of an unsuspecting young man ( young to us is a man in his 40's and 50's) (-:

We hunted the Brown Bear in Canada, Alaska and Russia and the bears in Russia were the largest of the bears we experienced in those three countries. However that was twenty years ago. I have been told that the Kodiak bears on Kodiak island are also very large, but never had the opportunity to hunt them, Bear-78, Hodgeman, salmonchaser, do you hunt Kodiak ?

 

[Thebear_78]

Kodiak has excellent blacktail deer hunting. It also has elk on some of the surrounding islands. There are raendeer and bison on the island as well. Mostly transplants. The islands are beautiful and probably the best place to hunt large gorgeous red fox with many silver and cross variants.


Kodiak is a drawing only area for brown bears. It is also a one bear every 4 years area. I generally don't put in for these draws because access is very expensive and time consuming. I would hate to invest this much of my yearly allowance for a Kodiak bear because I don't particular like brown bear meat that much. Especially a coastal bear that is feeding on fish and ocean mammals. Imagine meat with the smell and taste of dead fish or rancid seal/whale. It's truly uneatable.

I need a full freezer more than a rug or skull. While I would definitely take a bear if the opportunity arises I don't intentionally target them. I saw several nice bears this year within stalking distance, interior berry fed bears, but taking one would have limited my moose/caribou harvest so I let the go free sucking down blueberries like a vacuums cleaner.

There are some very large bears on the kenai peninsula too. Maybe not as consistently massive but bears well in excess of a thousand pounds. Having been handshaking close to some of these monsters I assure you they are massive. Like compact automobiles rummaging thru the forests. Luckily these primarily salmon fed bears are generally more docile than the smaller inland grizzly. They can be surprisingly uninterested when feeding on salmon. It's not uncommon to almost step on one sitting calmly like a dog on the river bank not even bothering to look up at you when you walk by. The interior bears have a much more intense vibe.

This is a very large bear a buddy of mine shot a couple years ago. It had been badly wounded be another more powerful bear and was depending heavily on a black bear bait site. The more powerful bear had broken the tip of this bears lower jaw off, making it difficult to eat or catch prey.

This is a large brown bear I snapped a picture of while salmon fishing, notice the lazy, laze-fair attitude. He was calmly sitting there sunning a full belly of red salmon without a care in the world, I imagine he would have let me step on him if I hadn't been paying attention.

This large brownie boar surprised me by standing up from behind a downed tree less than 10 feet away patently waiting for me to refill a bait barrel. It had about the same demeanor as my black lab waiting for me to fill his water bowl. Later this year this bear came in and took a black bear away from my friend st the same bait site. Picked up a 6' black bear and carried it away, yelling and even shooting several rounds of 10mm had almost no effect on him. He had absolutely no fear of humans. A couple years later the started allowing us to hunt browns over bait in this area. In true brown bear fashion these big bears got the memo and stopped being so brazon. I swear they can smell the locking brown bear metal tags. It is easily the best form of bear repellent.

As a comparison this much smaller interior griz with a moose carcass is the epitome of intensity, Every movement sizzling with 10000 volts of energy like bottled lightening. Sorry it's not a great picture but I wasn't willing to get any closer to snap a cell phone picture.

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[Blkram]

Yukon Huntress, I did not take any offence to your post as I read it as you intended and you made an excellent point regarding removing mitts before being able to use a handgun. As I am not usually out hunting after -25 below Celsius, I usually wear gloves, which work fine for the firearms that I normally carry, and would also be wearing in the event that I did acquire the carry permit for a handgun while working as a Wildlife Monitor. And yes, DrMike has a good sense of humour, and takes it as good as he dishes it out! One of the reasons we have been having so much fun hunting and fishing together over the past 17 years.

I too would like to say that I mean no disrespect to those who choose certain weapons or use of certain types of ammunition. I readily agree that buckshot in a shotgun can and has killed bears in many situations, but lessons learned along the way have demonstrated that slugs are a better choice. And the bear that I was forced to dispatch as it charged me, was put down with a lever action rifle (Marlin in 375 Win) as it was what I had in my hands at the time. And although I own a shotgun, I am very much more familiar and practiced with rifles than shotguns, but have qualified with both types of firearms every year when required to do so for work. Until I can demonstrate the need for the handgun carry permit, I will not need to qualify with it in order to receive the permit.

When I post my opinion, it is just that, and is not meant to disrespect someone else's opinion. My sincere apologies to anyone if that was not communicated properly in any of my responses. I fully support everyone's individual opinion and right to participate and practice as they choose to so so in this pastime! We all need to stand strong together in this practice of our choosing. It is a large part of our history and what made us who we are today.

Europe, I'm happy to hear that you will still be able to participate in this sport afield, as your passion is evident in your posts. I know that I treasured the time I spent afield with my grandma hunting. While my grandpa taught me to use and care for firearms, it was my grandma that taught me how to hunt rabbits and grouse as a child.

It may have been overlooked, but most hunters in North America do not live and regularly hunt in grizzly country, and thankfully for many of those who do, have not had to deal with bears on their hunting trips into grizzly country, or at least not had to deal with problem bears or dangerous encounters. Excellent points made above regarding hunted bears vs non-hunted Bears as being more educated when encountering people, and acting as we would consider appropriate.

You will also get a kick out of this; DrMike and I were meeting with a local landowner who had given us permission to hunt elk and bears on his land, when he referred to the good Dr as a "young pup"! The landowner was in his mid 80's while DrMike was still just in his late 60's. Mike chuckled the rest of the day over that! And still does whenever he thinks or is reminded of being a young pup.

 

[Africa Huntress]

I had logged on to respond to a PM and was looking around and saw this. Interesting. My sister is an adrenaline junkie and thinks hunting lions with a handgun is fun. My father hunts lion with a muzzleloader. I think they are both one sandwich short of a picnic lol

Best Regards

Jamila

 

[Blkram]

Jamila, too funny! LOL

I could only imagine how thrilling a lion hunt with a handgun could be!

I have always thought that hunting a leopard with a bow would be very excitingly! Of course I imagine doing this from a blind. I do believe that I would do this with a compound bow instead of a recurve in order for a higher chance of success.

 

[hunternyny]

Blkram and Jamila

Jamila, your father, sister and Blkram have more courage than I

When I first read your post and then Blkram's I thought, they are not just a sandwich short, they are missing the entire picnic basket LOL

Blkram, I know bears are hunted with a bow, have you hunted them with a bow ?

Has anybody here hunted bears ( or lions ) with a bow ?

 

[Thebear_78]

I was trying for a brown bear with my muzzle loader but Forrest fire made hunting tough that season. I have taken a recurve out after black bear but haven't had s chance to stick one with an arrow.


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[salmonchaser]

Last summer we had a guest at the lodge who took a honest 9 footer with his bow. An exciting story what I remembered most was he had the bear at five yards but let him get to twenty yards before he stuck him.


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[salmonchaser]

For clarity, he was fishing with us, had hunted with another outfitter further down the peninsula.


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[Blkram]

hunternyny,

I can see why you may think we are a full picnic basket short of a picnic, but since others have accomplished these feats, it is practicable, even if it may not be most practical! LOL and yes, I have sometimes questioned my own sanity! But where is the adventure in doing what everybody else does?

I have hunted black bear with a compound bow, but have passed on smaller bears at very close distances as it seemed akin to murder to kill a young animal that came closer to me out of curiosity. At 10 and 15 yards, the young bears seemed too innocent and inquisitive to shoot. I have since thought that a mature bear with a longbow would be a great hunt. Not sure that I will hunt a grizzly with a bow...but maybe a compound bow out of a tree stand over a salmon stream???

I guess that is also why we all make different choices in the tools we do for different tasks. And why necessity is the mother of invention.

Rocks would kill , but spears proved to be more efficient for larger game. The atlatl meant we could use them from farther away with more force. Bow and arrows meant we could do so with more efficiency and were easier to carry. Recurve so had more energy than longbows, and compound bows shoot carbon arrows even faster for moe penetration. Flintlocks and muzzleloaders meant we could harvest game more efficiently. Modern powders allowed for smaller, faster projectiles. Lever actions held more rounds of ammunition, and bolt action repeaters offered better accuracy. Yet, many forms of these weapons are still in use today to harvest game.

And the fact that we get to have a choice with which we get to practice our pastime is one of the great things about it.

Some may question our sanity, but as long as we are having fun, and we support one another in our choices, with dignity and respect, we are all winners!

 

[hunternyny]

Excellent points Blkram.

Do you fellows --Blkram, Bear-78, Salmonchaser, always carry a handgun when you bow hunting ? And do each of you live where the law allows you to kill a bear with a handgun, even if your bow hunting, if the reason is to save your life ?

 

[Thebear_78]

I don't go anywhere without a handgun. Aside from a few areas and select seasons Alaska doesn't particularly care your method of harvest.

When it comes to DLP defense of life and property you always have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary


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[DrMike]

Do you fellows --Blkram, Bear-78, Salmonchaser, always carry a handgun when you bow hunting ? And do each of you live where the law allows you to kill a bear with a handgun, even if your bow hunting, if the reason is to save your life ?

For all practical purposes, carrying a handgun while hunting is prohibited in BC. As an aside, I was with Blkram when the young bear came so close. Knowing he had wanted to shoot a bear with his bow for some time, I urged him to put an arrow in the orphaned creature (well, not really orphaned, just a young'un that had been run off that summer). His scruples wouldn't allow him to take the little fellow. We turned and walked away, the bear watching quizzically as we topped the berm and returned to our truck. It was a good day.

 

[super-7]

As far as the original question for this thread, my choice for a handgun for bear protection would be the 6" S&W Model 57 in 41 Rem Mag loaded with Winchester's 240 gr Platinum Tip HP's. Same bullet weight as the 44 Mag, with less recoil and better penetration. The 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk with the same ammo would be good too, but cannot be reloaded as quickly if required. Unfortunately, under normal circumstances here in Canada, this is not an option for us.

For years I have packed my Marlin 375 Winchester loaded with 220 gr Hornady's and them moved up to my Browning BLR in 358 Win loaded with 220 gr Speer HotCor's. Both rifles had low powered Leupolds in QD rings for quick changes to open sights as/if needed. My new Marlin in 41 Rem Mag using the same ammo mentioned above would be handy too.

I also have a Benelli M2 loaded with slugs as another option. Still need to acquire a Model 870 Tactical; reason to follow...

I am trained and certified in Wildlife Monitoring (bear watch) here, and under our rules, can only use pump action shotguns (reliability, and Remington Model 870 specified) equipped with open sights (front bead only not allowed), capable of holding at least 4 slugs (no buckshot allowed due to unreliable penetration and less than optimum energy transference to the animal if lethal deterrent is required) in the magazine.

With this certification, I do qualify under our rules for a carry permit for this occupation, and must use a double action revolver in a cartridge capable of personal protection (41 and 44 Mags preferred) that must be carried in a hip holster that is not concealed, during on duty hours only. Pistols do not qualify, single action revolvers will only be acceptable if able to pass competency test incl/ timing and accuracy, 357 Mag and smaller does not qualify (not enough energy) and larger caliber so such as the 460 and 500 do not qualify (handguns too heavy to quickly get into action and cartridges too powerful for most people to handle properly). Proficiency testing must be requalified annually, and includes moving and stationary targets within certain time limits, for accuracy. Some of the tests include reloading the firearm and shooting the same target again during a particular time trial. On the one moving target, bear charging you at 35 kmh, you must place so many shots in the vitals within 3 seconds from a holstered starting position. Tougher than it sounds.

I would have to look and find a couple of recent articles on bears and handguns for protection. I was impressed with the very experienced authors opinions and thoughts relating to this particular topic...

In most cases, a calm and cool demeanour in a bear encounter will result in the bear leaving the area and not needing to actually use a deterrent, but for those other times...

Bear spray was given a strong argument, but you do not always get to use it effectively if the wind direction is not right in your particular circumstance where a bear may be charging you from the upwind direction, or it is in your pack vs on your hip or on your shoulder strap. Using bear spray must be practiced to acquire proficiency in getting it into action, and using it effectively.

A rifle was a better choice than a handgun as any big game rifle typically carried hunting in bear country has more energy than any handgun or shotgun; but is harder to get into action quickly due to its size or being slung over the shoulder or carried in a scabbard pocket popular on some backpacks today, and the bullet must be placed accurately the first time as you may not get time for a second shot.

Shotguns are better for most people as they are easier to learn to use than a rifle and slugs placed on major bone at close distances are very effective. Buckshot may cover more area, but does not have the same energy per pellet and performance is diminished. Try 3" 000 buck on one inch plywood at 15 yards and you will find that you will get very few pellets that will completely penetrate the plywood. A 2 3/4" 1 oz slug will penetrate every time. Buckshot not recommended!

Handguns are quicker to get into action, but this skill requires regular practice to obtain efficiency, and again the bullet must be placed accurately. A good case was made that most people who carry handguns for bear defence do not practice regularly with their handguns, and that for most who do choose a 44 Mag, and that they cannot handle full power loads that they would typically load while afield, and only practice with lighter loads if they do practice. This equates to most being unable to get the handgun into action quickly enough, and then cannot place the bullet where it is required. It was suggested that most people would be better served with a 357 Mag, that they would practice and become proficient with (lighter handgun and more manageable recoil).

Great post!!
The bear that got the sheep hunter a couple years ago in Alberta had both bear spray and a rifle , she still got him.
He never had a chance and she had the wind, a total predatory attack IMO. A pistol may have saved his life but are illegal here for carry.


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[Fourtyonesix]

One thing that rarely gets mentioned when discussing bear back up handguns is the purpose of a side arm. It's not there to pile drive that bear, or pole axe him, not to face plant him or knock him tip over tea kettle, it's to prevent bodily damage from happening to you or those around you. To much is lost in "knock down power" discussions. All I care about is preventing contact, if that's a 9mm super. A 38 special fantastic, 500 smith wonderful. I don't care. As long as the people involved come out ok.
I've always said that if you have a gun and a encounter with a bear.....you have a bear gun.

 

[salmonchaser]

I don't go anywhere with out a handgun.
That being said, the thought of a predatory attack by a grizzly spookes me. I've had them step out of the brush a few feet behind me, had a guests backpack taken from just a few yards behind me.
Many times I've recognized that had they wanted me they certainly could have done so.
The damn things can move like smoke through the alders when they so choose.
The down fall of a long gun as bear defense is that it too often near by. Propped up on drift wood or willow limb. I once had a guide and his clients come up too us. First words out of his mouth was watch out there's a bear around the bend with my gun. Apparently they had waded out leaving everything on the beach. The bear got between them and their gear. I found his 870 and shredded pack an hour later.
From a fishing perspective a good tactical sling on a long gun is the way to go.
The advantage of a handgun is you'll have it with you when you need it. Well as long as it's not in your pack or hanging on a willow limb back where you took your morning constitutional.


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[Darkhorse]

I have no experience with Grizzly's or Brown bears even though I'd like to hunt them given the opportunity, but I live in an area of mostly unhunted black bears who have little fear of man.
Based on just one incident I would always carry a handgun in Grizzly country even if I was armed with a rifle. I would not feel uncomfortable with my old Ruger SBH with it's 7.5" barrel in my chest rig. Granted a double action is a better choice but I bought this gun in 1979 and feel very confident in my shooting ability with it. It takes a lot of practice to shoot a hard kicking single action fast on multiple shots. But it's just a knack learned from experience. And the SBH has great balance with the long barrel. Plus it generates more velocity.
About 30 years ago I was on my hands and knees sneaking up on a couple of wild hogs in dog hair thick pines. I just happened to look to my left and there stood a large black bear staring right into my eyes. To my right were the hogs and I realized they weren't hogs at all but bear cubs and I was right between them. I was carrying my 7mm Mag. and it was flat on the ground on the offside. To use it required me to come to my knees, turn to the left then try to shoot the bear.
I was in a bad place and knew it so I didn't do anything. Just froze where I was at. I didn't know anything else to do and couldn't have shot her if she had charged. Instead she "woofed" and took off towards her cubs and all vanished into the woods.
At least with a handgun I had a decent chance of getting it into action where with the rifle I had none.
And even if the rifle was leaning against a tree while my hands were busy the handgun would always be on my person.
That's the way I see it anyway, even with no Big Bear experience.