Hey Nosler, why an EIGHTH 6mm bullet weighing 85-100 grains?
- Thread starter Songdog
- Start date
Just saw this thread, very interesting. I'd love to see a 100-105gr AccuBond myself. I agree that Nosler's boattail especially needs work. Bryan Litz's book with BC tests on a number of bullets shows it pretty clearly. I'm a huge AccuBond fan but I still think they can be improved ballistically.
I've had much better luck getting accubonds to shoot well than Hornady interbonds or swift scirocco II's. Maybe their shape is easier to get accuracy with while still fitting a magazine box.
Also more manufacturer's 243 and 6mm's are coming out with 1 in 9 twists these days to take advantage of the high BC bullets. I think there would be a heck of a market for a 100 and 105gr AccuBond for people shooting these.
I've had much better luck getting accubonds to shoot well than Hornady interbonds or swift scirocco II's. Maybe their shape is easier to get accuracy with while still fitting a magazine box.
Also more manufacturer's 243 and 6mm's are coming out with 1 in 9 twists these days to take advantage of the high BC bullets. I think there would be a heck of a market for a 100 and 105gr AccuBond for people shooting these.
I thought the same thing, songdog. I attributed it to the mania that seems to surround "hard" bullets for deer in the marketplace these days. I've simply never had an issue w/ either the 90 or 95 gr NBTs, so a 90 ge AB seemed like the answer to an unasked question?
The 105 Amax, on the other hand, is a bullet worth building a rifle around IMHO. A 100 or 105 gr BT option makes a ton of sense to me.
The 105 Amax, on the other hand, is a bullet worth building a rifle around IMHO. A 100 or 105 gr BT option makes a ton of sense to me.
- Thread starter
- #44
efw":3s26bdy8 said:
I was fooling around today up at a buddies place, shooting a few groups off the sticks to try and break the bipod monotony. He came out and we got to talking, it was pretty interesting for us both. He's 80 somethin' or other and has been around stuff that goes boom his entire life. He asked what I was shooting, and to my surprise was up to par on the 105 Amax and the potential of the .243.
He then offered a challenge.... a paper plate sized rock I lazered @ 507 yards. He said many had tried... that was all I needed to hear. I punched the fairly steady 10 o'clock wind in Strelok and got 6+3 up and 1+1 left.... dialed it in the Minox Z3.... squeeze.... and that rock simply disappeared in a very satisfying thud and puff of white smoke. Best part was.... I got to see it all through the scope... I love the .243/105 Amax..... last I saw ol'Jim, he was headed in to town to pick-up a box or two of 105s.
the "problem" with the nosler bullets bc is not the weight of the bullet but the fact they are using a tangent ogive like sierra does. the amax uses a scecant ogive this profile creates a higher bc in itself. the amax is a great bullet and does shoot a little tighter groups in my 6.5-284 than the bergers do. the amax also works well on game in my experience. hornady does not have bc on par per weight with the bergers or jlk again due to the bullets profile. nosler has gone the way of leupold and thus given up there niche in the long range game in my opinion, meaning leupold kept offering the same basic mark 4 with the mil-dot moa adjustments for ever. now your seeing the likes of nightforce vortex premier schmidt&bender "they have always been at the leading edge" us optics and so on come in and fill that niche with modern features. leupold is now coming out with new stuff but i think they have been hurt by sitting on the sidelines for so long. the nosler bullets work plain and simple but whats new and whats winning at the top level is going to sell better tomorrow. just my opinion feel free to rip on it if you like.
- Thread starter
- #46
usmc 89":pw5g2eq8 said:
Hornady has the 105 HPBT with a tangent ogive and a BC of .530. It's more about the boat tail that the front end.... Nosler just doesn't want it.... they have other plans, so be it.
I can tell you this for sure and for certain.... the .243 will digest several boxes of 105 Amaxes before the fall season arrives.
Ok, I love high BC for long range plinking as well, but really they don't do much at normal hunting distances. Yes they are a tad more efficient, but not as much as most think. High BC's sell bullets, that's a fact in todays sales trends. But the boatail really don't do much until the bullet has slowed to about 1400 fps.
Most all bullets are figured from a G1 drag. This give boattails an inflated number. But yes they still have some efficiency advantage. Again, it's still not as great as most think. If one corrects the BC to the correct G5 or G7 drag as Berger finally wised up and started doing. Plug those numbers in into a Balistic Program with a correct drag funtion, and there is very little difference between a boattail and flatbase. Again where the boatail shines, is it's buffering capability when it reaches the transonic zone. The bullet is already supersonic within the barrel, so the buffering effect of the boatail has no play.
The efficiency differences under 500-600 yds is very little. Unless your one to shoot at biggame at 800-1000 for most rounds (some a bit further), there just ain't much advantage. And quite honestly, I question ethics of shooting biggame much beyond 5-600, and sometimes shorter. There's aweful lot that can go wrong when you get out there. I can plink at paper all day long and hold my own with some of the best on my best day at 1000 and abit farther. But paper don't take a step or move unexpectedly, like animals do. A sudden unexpected gust of wind at mid range only leaves for a bigger group on paper, but a posssible wounding shot on biggame. With that a boattail or flat base makes no difference.
Simple fact is, the typical high BC's for hunting bullets are what I would call somewhat overrated, and if you don't believe me, use a good ballistic program where you can plug in the numbers and make the drag correction and you will see for yourself.
Yes I do use NBT's/boatails for some situations, but for the most part, the NPT is my most often used bullet, regardless caliber and cartridge. And while I would never hold anybody to my way thinking, I won't shoot a any big game animal beyond 400. For that, the proper weight Nosler Partition for animal, at 27-2800 will do for me. The other thing is, most jacketed rifle bullet don't perform very well under 17-1800 fps, well above where the boatails actually do some good.
Most all bullets are figured from a G1 drag. This give boattails an inflated number. But yes they still have some efficiency advantage. Again, it's still not as great as most think. If one corrects the BC to the correct G5 or G7 drag as Berger finally wised up and started doing. Plug those numbers in into a Balistic Program with a correct drag funtion, and there is very little difference between a boattail and flatbase. Again where the boatail shines, is it's buffering capability when it reaches the transonic zone. The bullet is already supersonic within the barrel, so the buffering effect of the boatail has no play.
The efficiency differences under 500-600 yds is very little. Unless your one to shoot at biggame at 800-1000 for most rounds (some a bit further), there just ain't much advantage. And quite honestly, I question ethics of shooting biggame much beyond 5-600, and sometimes shorter. There's aweful lot that can go wrong when you get out there. I can plink at paper all day long and hold my own with some of the best on my best day at 1000 and abit farther. But paper don't take a step or move unexpectedly, like animals do. A sudden unexpected gust of wind at mid range only leaves for a bigger group on paper, but a posssible wounding shot on biggame. With that a boattail or flat base makes no difference.
Simple fact is, the typical high BC's for hunting bullets are what I would call somewhat overrated, and if you don't believe me, use a good ballistic program where you can plug in the numbers and make the drag correction and you will see for yourself.
Yes I do use NBT's/boatails for some situations, but for the most part, the NPT is my most often used bullet, regardless caliber and cartridge. And while I would never hold anybody to my way thinking, I won't shoot a any big game animal beyond 400. For that, the proper weight Nosler Partition for animal, at 27-2800 will do for me. The other thing is, most jacketed rifle bullet don't perform very well under 17-1800 fps, well above where the boatails actually do some good.
- Thread starter
- #48
Well.... maybe you're right... on paper. Even then the 105 has 25% Ke and -25% drift on the 95 NBT in my experience. But, I've seen the difference in the field in down range punch... and it's noticeable.
The additional field accuracy (meaning hitting stuff, not group shooting) stemming from the decreased wind drift is a boon as well, particularly on smaller targets such as coyotes and chucks and 12" gongs. At 400 yards, that 25% may not seem like much difference in energy (much over-rated, but the best we have).... but that extra 25% buys you an equal amount more work on critter organs. Throw in 25% less drift.... for almost no additional recoil.... and even at max 400... it's a win/win.
The additional field accuracy (meaning hitting stuff, not group shooting) stemming from the decreased wind drift is a boon as well, particularly on smaller targets such as coyotes and chucks and 12" gongs. At 400 yards, that 25% may not seem like much difference in energy (much over-rated, but the best we have).... but that extra 25% buys you an equal amount more work on critter organs. Throw in 25% less drift.... for almost no additional recoil.... and even at max 400... it's a win/win.
I certainly won't argue there is a difference comparing a 105 agianst a 90 or 95 gr.. But then it really ain't comparing apples to apples. As I see the that heavier aspect of it is,,,,,
if I'm not mistaken, the great share of factory 6mm's are the 1-10 twist. That twist is barely enough for some of the higher BC boattail 100's, let alone 105's. The 105's are barely shootable in a 1-9" and iirc, some need a 8". I feel the mfg's such as Nosler, do their best to serve the greater share,,,,it's hard to please all us. Ther just ain't enough return in the specialty niche's.
Now Hornady, makes no claim on the A-max as a hunting bullet, that I'm aware of. But I know quite a few using them for hunting. And I'm not sure Sierra would make a statement of the MK's being a good hunting bullet either.
If one really wanted to, I would try expansion testing Nosler CC's and see.
But the testing reports I have seen reports on of Match designed bullets, there have been too many failures for my comfort. From complete seperation to not opening at all at various velocities,,,,from the same bullet at same impact speeds. And that included both Sierra MK and Hornady's A-Max.
But I guess I'm just a tad old school with certain things.
if I'm not mistaken, the great share of factory 6mm's are the 1-10 twist. That twist is barely enough for some of the higher BC boattail 100's, let alone 105's. The 105's are barely shootable in a 1-9" and iirc, some need a 8". I feel the mfg's such as Nosler, do their best to serve the greater share,,,,it's hard to please all us. Ther just ain't enough return in the specialty niche's.
Now Hornady, makes no claim on the A-max as a hunting bullet, that I'm aware of. But I know quite a few using them for hunting. And I'm not sure Sierra would make a statement of the MK's being a good hunting bullet either.
If one really wanted to, I would try expansion testing Nosler CC's and see.
But the testing reports I have seen reports on of Match designed bullets, there have been too many failures for my comfort. From complete seperation to not opening at all at various velocities,,,,from the same bullet at same impact speeds. And that included both Sierra MK and Hornady's A-Max.
But I guess I'm just a tad old school with certain things.
- Thread starter
- #50
onesonek":3nbgn8d8 said:
That's just the point.... Hornady is making apples and oranges.... and Nosler is making oranges (BC joke here).
1-10's are going the way of the round nose.... and I've never seen a 1-9.5 that won't shoot an Amax, but I live at 5000'. My factory Remington shoots 105s very well... it's a 1-9.125"
I'd love to try the CC.... but it's rated 1-8", and given the BC I believe it. I'm also not too hip on shooting hollow point match bullets at fur.... as I've seen inconsistent results.
I have, however, seen quite a few Amax vs. beast collisions.... and the beast has yet to win, and only one stopped a bullet. The Amax behaves just like a ballistic tip of similar ilk...
If Nosler built a 105 NBT... with a BC of .455-.470.... they would very likely shoot in a 1-10" twist... and it would be a vast improvement over the existing 95 grain offering. I would bet a few boxes they would quickly become one of the top sellers in the 6mm line (behind only the 70 NBT that I can think of).... Seriously, Mr. Lake (we have had lunch).... look me up, I want to talk to someone about this... you guys can do it, and it would be an AWESOME bullet, and it would outsell the 90 grain AccuBond......
I volunteer to shoot pretty much whatever... pretty much where ever... with a .243 and a 105 prototype NBT.... all in the name of R&D (and since none of these other guys are apparently interested in shooting one)... I will do it for free!
- Thread starter
- #52
- Thread starter
- #54
onesonek":2om8x4wa said:
It's what shooters want... Look at the pictures I posted. Nosler doesn't seem too concerned about cost... They have 8 different 6mm game bullets, in 4 different designs... and charge a premium on them all. It would out sell the other two NBT offerings... though Nosler would charge twice as much money for them, so I'd probably keep shooting the Hornady anyway.
- Thread starter
- #56
- Thread starter
- #58
AzDak42":egrfmssf said:
In this case, abundant is redundant... a 90 and 95 NBT.... a 95 and 100 Partition... a 90 NBT, Etip, and AccUnicorn? Seems like someone isn't doing their job in operations research... as resource allocation seems the cause of slow market response.
" Seems like someone isn't doing their job in operations research... as resource allocation seems the cause of slow market response."
:shock: Wow,,,pretty bold statement.
How big is this market need in your research?
This all reminds of another quote,,,,,,
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
:shock: Wow,,,pretty bold statement.
How big is this market need in your research?
This all reminds of another quote,,,,,,
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
- Thread starter
- #60
onesonek":1lw5pwdq said:
This all inspired another quote.......
"The production of too many, outweigh the needs..... of anyone"
You could take a guy that's been shooting 90gr NBTs his entire life.... stick a 95 NBT in his pipe.... and he'd never know the difference, or visa versa. Same with the 95 vs. 100 Part..... eliminate one of each.... and use those resources to make something that would satisfy a void in the market. You loose nothing in the lack of +/-5 grains in the NBT and Part..... and gain all you can grab of the LR hunting market.
