Hey Nosler, why an EIGHTH 6mm bullet weighing 85-100 grains?

[onesonek]

This all reminds of another quote,,,,,,
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

This all inspired another quote.......

"The production of too many, outweigh the needs..... of anyone"
That's a bit contradictory,,don't you think?, First you want more of something , yet set limits on others. Don't know who said that quote, but don't make sense to me. And it certainly sounds out of touch with the free enterprise system that made this country great.

You could take a guy that's been shooting 90gr NBTs his entire life.... stick a 95 NBT in his pipe.... and he'd never know the difference, or visa versa. Same with the 95 vs. 100 Part..... eliminate one of each.... and use those resources to make something that would satisfy a void in the market. You loose nothing in the lack of +/-5 grains in the NBT and Part..... and gain all you can grab of the LR hunting market.

Now I would agree on this in part, but then I'm not going to second guess a marketing team of a company that is proven quite successful.
As I said I wouldn't mind such a bullet myself, but it is a matter of economics for Nolser I believe.
I know the LR crowd is growing, but how many are actually using .243/6mm caliber for big game. Most I know, are using larger calibers for such work, even on the smaller species such as antelope. Maybe Nolser will consider it, but it would suprise me if they hadn't looked at it already, and the numbers just ain't there yet for their criteria. I don't know, but it still boils down to the numbers of economics. And if were feasible to their structure, I'm thinking it would already be produced.

I am curious about one thing,,,,
Again since you said you wouldn't use them if the price wasn't close to Hornady's.
You and I both know it would likely be priced similar to but slightly higher than a 95 gr. BT.
Of which is close to a 1/3 more than Hornady.
How many different Nosler products are you using now?

 

[Songdog]

A quick review of the bench showed the following Nosler products:

.22 Cal.
50 & 55 NBTs partial boxes

6mm
55, 70 NBTs coupla' new boxes

.25
85, 100, 115 NBTs.... partial boxes

7mm
120, 140 NBTs.... partial 'seconds' bags

.30
150, 165 NBTs
165 Accubonds

.375
260 Accubonds


Though, admittedly.... most of these (except for the 6mm) are from times gone by. As you can see... I'm a lover of the BT, always have been. I've killed more of my big game critters with the 100 NBT out of a .25-06 than all the rest of the caliber/bullet combos I've used combined.... and I've killed hundreds of coyotes with 55 and 70 NBTs out of the 6mms..... just wish I could get a 21st century NBT.... not a Dodge Dart.

 

[onesonek]

Cool,,,,the only thing there that really suprised me, was the choice of the .25/100 gr., rather than the 115 gr..
The Dodge Dart part, had coffee where it didn't need to be :lol:

In general on the LR stuff, there is a part that has me concerned however. Not your skills, or some others here or elsewhere I know of.
But what concerns me with the trend, is far too often people read or hear stuff about it then go get a rig and set up for such work. Now, I don't shoot the number of rounds I use to, but still shoot quite regularly to keep my fundamentals sharp, so I got a good idea of who shoots regularly. The last 5 years or so, I see a number guys at the range a couple weeks before season, I haven't seen since last year. They drag out this new Long Ranger, and make comments something like on how it will "dumpem at 600 yards and beyond". But they shoot maybe 5-10 rounds at 25 yds, and darn few at a 100. After watching this for sometime, I concluded that only 30% can shoot any sort of group that will be good enough for a 10" kill zone at 300. Only 10% are good enough for 400yds, with less than 1% shoot well enough to hit a 12" gong at 500. Granted it's a small segment of the hunting population, but even if it was 3 times that, it's still scary.

 

[muleman]

Josh and Dave,
I've been sitting off to the side and listening to your discussion and I just wanted to say THANK YOU. You two have been having a very thorough discussion with facts and thoughts vey well presented. Your discussion has passion with out degrading into insults and I have enjoyed it and learned a thing or two. This kind of discussion often turns into a brawl on other sites so I applaud you both...... and no I won't take sides on this one! :grin:

Scott

 

[Songdog]

I started shooting the 100NBT when I was a kid... and never saw a reason to stop. That's what I see in the .243 with slick bullets... just +p.

As far as the long range hunters... you'll get no argument from me. But, let's be careful where we point the dirty end of the stick, as that argument applies across the board to bullets where they shouldn't be. I'd wager that more deer are wounded and lost inside 200 yards every year... than beyond. A long range bullet cannot launch itself from the bore.... any more than a black rifle is capable of an "assault". Ethics is not the argument here... a do it all bullet in the .243 is.

I too appreciate the candor.... even though I can come across a bit flippant.... there is serious need for a "sarcasm" font.

 

[Woodycreek]

I will agree with Scott on how this discussion has gone. Good back and forth with good points on both sides. I would like to see more high BC 6mm hunting bullets, but can someone do any better than the Amax? It's hard to beat the price and the .5 BC if shooting whitetail deer or smaller game.

 

[onesonek]

I too will use +P loads in certain setups, and like you, let the firearm and brass tell me what's happening.
I agree to the statement,,, "as that argument applies across the board to bullets where they shouldn't be. I'd wager that more deer are wounded and lost inside 200 yards every year... than beyond." But that is because I believe that 99% of all, are taken at that range or under. But I would also wager that a greater percentage per shot taken at long range, thought to have missed aren't followed up on, because there was no sign of being hit.

I also agree this wasn't necessarily about ethics. I beg your forgivness, but I will inject it when I see an opening. The reason why?,,, Because I know many a beginners frequent boards as a learning tool, to gain knowledge. I feel it's all our responsibility to give them all the perspectives. I also know it's much easier today that say even 10 years ago with the technology we have at hand. But one with all that must understand, knowing and applying are two complete different things. That don't come by naturally for many, it takes lots of practice.

Ok, back to the bullet,,,,, or in this case "do it all bullet".
Honestly, I have yet to see any cup&core bullet do exactly what I expect, from an up close 3000 fps or more, down to it's low end velocity threshold,,,,, Every Time. That's why I have stayed with NPT's in 99% of my hunting big game. Yes I give up some yardage to the sleeker boatails, and yes they cost more. But they still have all the range I need or want for big game, and I haven't had one fail me yet. However I can see use of the bonded's if I want to push things somewhat. But a 105 NBT certainly would be fun try out ot XP as I said. Not so much for the outter limits of range, but because it might work better in the 7.5" twist, than the AB or ET should I choose to use it for antelope.

"I too appreciate the candor.... even though I can come across a bit flippant"
Likewise here!

.... "there is serious need for a "sarcasm" font."

There is,,,,well, emotes

,,,or you could use :twisted: , kind of depends on context, in my thought .

For that tip, you owe me a box of NPT's :lol:

 

[Songdog]

For that tip, you owe me a box of NPT's :lol:

If I ever find a box lingering in the musty corners of my loading bench.... they're all yours... though I can't recall shooting a Partition in the last 20 years.

I commonly state; ethics is a bullet through both lungs.... that's it, doesn't matter how it gets there. Anything less.... is uncivilized.

A couple of counter points here:

I'd rather have a 400 yard shot with a relaxed shooter and a relaxed animal... than a 100 yard shot that needs to happen in the next 4 seconds because the critter is on high alert. If I have 2, 5, maybe 30 minutes to make everything right.... then the odds of a solid hit are increased dramatically, within the practiced range of the shooter. I practice 400-800 yard shots in the field all the time... and know a bunch of guys that are similar. But, I don't know anybody that regularly practices jump shooting stuff at 80 yards with their .338 Win. Again, who'd more likely to end up with a rodeo?

Second.... they guy who actually buys a couple boxes of high BC bullets is pretty likely to shoot them. Throw that added practice in with a more forgiving bullet (of wind call errors by 25%) and you've got more bullets ending up making the short trip through the clockwork. Where as.... it's perfectly acceptable for a guy to buy a box of core-lokts for the '06 on Thurs. afternoon, fling a few at the range on Friday "bout 3" high".... then proceed to bang away at deer on Saturday morning.... as long as it's inside 200 yards?

It comes down to competency, and knowing the situation.... ballistically, and circumstantially. I don't tell anyone else what their range should be.... and I don't really listen to anyone who tells me where I should stop shooting.... I let a 12" gong and about 100 rounds tell me that.

 

[onesonek]

For that tip, you owe me a box of NPT's :lol:

If I ever find a box lingering in the musty corners of my loading bench.... they're all yours... though I can't recall shooting a Partition in the last 20 years.

I commonly state; ethics is a bullet through both lungs.... that's it, doesn't matter how it gets there. Anything less.... is uncivilized.
I whole heartedly agree there too!

A couple of counter points here:

I'd rather have a 400 yard shot with a relaxed shooter and a relaxed animal... than a 100 yard shot that needs to happen in the next 4 seconds because the critter is on high alert. If I have 2, 5, maybe 30 minutes to make everything right.... then the odds of a solid hit are increased dramatically, within the practiced range of the shooter. I practice 400-800 yard shots in the field all the time... and know a bunch of guys that are similar. But, I don't know anybody that regularly practices jump shooting stuff at 80 yards with their .338 Win. Again, who'd more likely to end up with a rodeo?

I also agree on a shot with both being relaxed. But short range don't necessarliy mean alerted. As all methods need practice and skill. Case in point on what I call extreme short range.,,,, where as I still hunt in timber quite often,,,,, it took a few years to get it down where I could do it without alarming them, and or knowing what they would do if I was track hunting. Then there is just plain sneaking up on them in the open. Now I don't use that method much anymore,,,,I just look for other oppritunties, as I'm getting a bit old for a 4-800 crawl anymore, (mind ain't but body cringes when I suggest it). But case in point there,,,, my son upon my coaching got better at it than I, is able to crawl up to whitetails while they are laying down to within 30-40 yds in open counrty that barely has enough cover to hide a jackrabbit. If one can do that on a whitetail, one can sneak up on anything. I have done it, but I would position my self and shoot once I could get a good idea of how the animal was actually laying, so I could get a good solid kill zone hit. That generally would be 50-100 yds. depending on the situation.
And for the jump shooting,,, well I don't know that I would call it jump shooting, but I do practice offhand snap shooting. Not for so much use in still/track hunting as I really don't care to shoot at moving animal,,,at any distance, but moreso if I need the practiced reaction time and placement accuracy for when in bear and lion country. It's my belief, that one should practice that as well as longer range from a rested position.

Second.... they guy who actually buys a couple boxes of high BC bullets is pretty likely to shoot them. Throw that added practice in with a more forgiving bullet (of wind call errors by 25%) and you've got more bullets ending up making the short trip through the clockwork. Where as.... it's perfectly acceptable for a guy to buy a box of core-lokts for the '06 on Thurs. afternoon, fling a few at the range on Friday "bout 3" high".... then proceed to bang away at deer on Saturday morning.... as long as it's inside 200 yards?

Well, if you add a zero or two on that couple of boxes, Then I would say its practice starting to do some good for the avg. shooter. But for me, that 25% really don't mean much. If I have calculate 36" or whatever wind drift, then another 25% really don't matter. It's a matter of knowing your load and what it does. I know guys that do what you describe in the last part, I don't hunt with them and don't know anybody that considers it acceptable, ( except for those that do it). I hide from those types in the field, and that aint hard, as I usually go deep enough they are to lazy go. Hell, most of those type don't get 10 feet from the truck, let alone 5-10 miles back in.

It comes down to competency, and knowing the situation.... ballistically, and circumstantially. I don't tell anyone else what their range should be.... and I don't really listen to anyone who tells me where I should stop shooting.... I let a 12" gong and about 100 rounds tell me that.

Again, I totally agree in the ccompetency and knowledge!!!
I think you might be taking all this askew if not wrong. I ain't telling you or anybody, long range is totally wrong. I do disagree on how it's presented quite often. Too often when I see it brought up, I don't very often see where all the practice and skill it takes, along in the discussion. I'm just trying to keep the unknowing from thinking it's so easy. That and, you know as well as I do, far too often common sense is lacking these days, and far too many need more guidence or explanation. I do agree high BC can and do make it easier for most and are helpful, but high BC ain't everything,,,They are a small part in my mind.
Too many hear or read things and automatically think they can do. I see it all the time, and I bet you do too! All my context really is geared toward informing, more than anything else,,,,not that I'm always right or know it all,,,,,,cuz that just ain't so. But I do my fair share of playing at long range,,, and I know it's just not something taken lightly,,,but neither is short to modest range.