Hi all and which calibre to choose?

[pshooter]

Hi Asa.

Is there any value in looking at the 6.5x55 Ackley Improved? Would it produce any tangible benefits over the 'standard' 6.5?

As you know I am seriously considering the 7mm Rem. Mag. My major concern with this is barrel life. I would have to have the rifle built (probably in the US for the quality I want) and would then possibly be in a high-cost situation should there be a need to replace the barrel. I understand the life is about 2,800 rounds tops. Whereas with the 6.5 I can buy a Sako 75 Hunter in left-hand out-of-the-box. The same for their 30-06 if this is worth looking at. It does seem, however, that you are saying the 6.5x55 will cover all of my needs when you say that the Scandinavian elk is the US equivalent of a moose!

At what maximum distance do you feel the 6.5 would prove efficient for a competent shooter, bearing in mind the shock value for a clean knockdown?

Many thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[roysclockgun]

pshooter wrote: "Is there any value in looking at the 6.5x55 Ackley Improved? Would it produce any tangible benefits over the 'standard' 6.5? ....."

The short answer is that the 6.5x55AI will produce precious little benefits over the 6.5x55. The only reason that shooters go to the Ackley Improved cartridges is that steeper shoulder allows more propellant to be squeezed into the case, therefore producing a tad bit more muzzle velocity! The steep shoulder on Ackley Improved cartrdiges can also cause feed problems. You have some unique issues in your quests, not faced by US shooters. (1) Cost; most US shooters do not face high cost when it comes to re-barreling, due to competition from barrel providers. (2) You want a custom rifle, produced overseas, also an item that will drive up your cost. (3) Not unique to the UK shooter, you are a lefty, which also will drive cost up a little. (4) You are considering one rifle for hunting and long range target/competition shooting. All of this woulld indicate that if you want to hold cost down, you should opt for a standard caliber that is offered by one of the large rifle makers, such as Remington or Savage. No matter what you buy, once you put more than 1000 rounds through the tube, you will need to watch for a loss of accuracy. Perhaps the 6.5x55 will last a couple hundred more rounds than would the 7mmRemMag, but if you are loading the 6.5x55 hot, to take elk/moose, the difference is small. You cannot get high muzzle velocity and expect realized energy/knock-down power, without a price paid, in terms of barrel life depletion. No?
IMO, after re-reading your posts, you will be best served by any number of calibers, as there are several out there that will do the taskings you require. However, with each choice, there is a trade off. You want a 600 yard elk killer? That is a long distance for most hunters, but of course, doable by dedicated riflemen. Most high powered rifle cartridges from 6.5mm on up will fill that bill. Recoil punishment? That is too personal a question to answer. Only you can decide how much recoil you can handle without beginning to develope "flinch!" If you flinch, all the flat shooting, long range capability in the world will do you no good. Your best bet is to shoot some rifles whenever and wherever you may find them and settle on what you want.
I have to stand on my first choice for what you asked and that is the 7mmRemMag. Reasons: accuracy, knock-down energy, availability of both ammo and left handed firearms and relatively light recoil when compared to monster magnums.

 

[pshooter]

I take on board what you are saying. It seems to me that I have to try out the 6.5x55, the 7mm Rem. Mag. and the 280 and make a decision.

Realistically, here in the UK, it would be rare to get a shot at a red deer (our largest deer species) at more than 400 yards, 500 at most, with the target practice being done out to 600-1000.

With that in mind I am not looking to be a benchrest shooter and will only compete at distance to hone my long-range hunting skills.

Where flinch is concerned, I have been used to shooting a Sako .338 yet flinch can be subjective wherein you can shoot something with the kick of the .338 and be okay and something in a lighter calibre can seem more jarring to the nerves. If that makes sense.

In my heart I would love to get the 7mm Rem. Mag. although it seems here for me as a lefty to get a good quality out of the box gun I would be limited to the 6.5x55, a .270 or a 30-06. To have a really good long-term friend, I could have one made up in the States and shipped over. It would still cost me a lot less than having made here!

I must make a decision: Out of the box or have a precision rifle made. I think that is what will decide the calibre I choose out of the three mentioned (setting aside the 30-06 example above).

Thanks so much everyone for all of your help. It is fantastic to be able to tap into a wealth of experience like this and talk to people who are willing to share so readily. I will let you know what I decide.

Many thanks and blessings.

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

A 400 yard shot is long anywhere on the globe. I have heard and read many accounts of hunters who presume they can take deer at that range, but doing it is another thing entirely. I guess what I am conveying is that any rifle that shoots out to 400 yards with energy to take elk should be acceptable. A 7MM Rem Mag does fit that bill and will harvest game as large as elk consistently and reliably. The .308 Win/.30-'06 class of cartridges will harvest elk at that range, but they are really at their limits at that range and size animal.

Check the used gun market. I believe Sako used to make portside rifles in 7MM Rem Mag. Or you can check Dakota Arms to see what that company can do for you. Remington used to make a lefty in 7MM Rem Mag. Or you can go the single shot route, maybe even a semiauto...

You have received a lot of good advice here, and based upon your criteria I would opine the 7MM Rem Mag is that which you seek. All you have to do now is find a good quality southpaw rifle that will not fail you when you need it most. Let me emphasize quality because when you hunt Wyoming and climb up hell-and-gone (They ain't known as Rocky Mountains for nuthin'!) and finally find the bull elk or 30" muley you've quested your entire life, you will not welcome a mechanical failure.

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

Oops, I forgot; if you go the used market route for a 7MM Rem Mag, remember that you can rebarrel a rifle for that caliber. Check with your gunsmith prior, though.

 

[pshooter]

Point taken about the Rockies Tom!

I will be on the lookout for a 7mm Rem Mag and will try to find a quality build. There are one or two gunsmiths here who can build for me based on the Remington 700 (the same as my custom stocked and bedded .243 BDL) but they are very expensive.

If I look at a US build it will still be much cheaper than here but can be re-barrelled from a gunsmith here when necessary. I will also look at the second-hand market.

I take on board what you say about the ability to take game at 400+ which is why I want the rifle to be good for target also. This will allow me to work hard with accuracy and the factors that come into play when shooting those sort of distances.

Thanks again.

 

[roysclockgun]

pshooer wrote: "....I take on board what you say about the ability to take game at 400+ which is why I want the rifle to be good for target also..."

You will read on these lists, people who claim to make 800+ yard shoots on deer as "easy", or "without giving a second thought". They are rare and to be held in awe, but mark, shooting at ranges beyond 400 yards, under field conditions is not only a task requiring much skill but also a firm rest and at least, less than gail winds. I have hunted a fair number of times in five different western states, and the flag is always standing nearly straight out on the pole. Wind can throw off all but the most skilled, rigged up rifleman. I applaud you for getting ready for that "shot of a lifetime" on a trophy that may only be presented at 600 yards. Likely you will take many more animals at far shorter ranges. Good luck in your choice.

 

[pshooter]

Thanks Roy. It will come one day and when I'm ready (I hope)!!!

 

[Asa Yam]

Is there any value in looking at the 6.5x55 Ackley Improved? Would it produce any tangible benefits over the 'standard' 6.5?

I'm not sure if there's an accuracy benefit by going to an improved version, though the 100+meter/second increase by the AI helps reduce wind drift and elevation compensation when using identical projectiles. As mentioned previously, this often comes at the cost of shorter barrel life.

As you know I am seriously considering the 7mm Rem. Mag. My major concern with this is barrel life. I would have to have the rifle built (probably in the US for the quality I want) and would then possibly be in a high-cost situation should there be a need to replace the barrel. I understand the life is about 2,800 rounds tops. Whereas with the 6.5 I can buy a Sako 75 Hunter in left-hand out-of-the-box. The same for their 30-06 if this is worth looking at.

There are legal and administrative issues involved with your project - all of which should be researched before purchasing your rifle. These include:

• IIRC, barrels in Scotland need to be proofed prior to the buyer taking the firearm home. This adds costs and time delays, and can get annoying/expensive if you use a caliber that eats barrels. There are some resources in Scotland which may help you determine what the costs may be:
  • Border Barrels make barrels. Their website (lots of good information) lists costs. http://www.border-barrels.com/
  • Peter Jackson might be another person to ask - his website is at http://www.jacksonrifles.com/index.htm
  NOTE: I have not done business with either of the firms mentioned above - I only know of them by word of mouth.
  I don't think that proofing a factory rifle barrel is required, as this is done at the factory.
  
• Some jurisdictions in the UK frown on approving licenses for magnum firearms of any type - including .22 Magnum rimfires!
• Rifle clubs may limit the calibers that may be used on their facilities. High performance calibers loaded with high BC projectiles may be capable of launching a projectile outside of the range's safety fan. Finding out what restrictions (if any) exist at local ranges would be prudent.
• When importing or exporting firearms or related materials (optics, reloading supplies, etc.), paperwork and Customs are involved at both ends of the transaction - these are required by international treaties (governing trafficking in small arms and war materials), and are NOT local requirements. Due to thse requirements, some dealers (including gunsmiths) don't sell overseas.

It does seem, however, that you are saying the 6.5x55 will cover all of my needs when you say that the Scandinavian elk is the US equivalent of a moose

Same animal - the North American moose is slightly larger. Historically, 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schonauer (sp) rifles have been used in Africa for hunting elephant. Most experts (both in the heyday of elephant hunting and today) would probably recommend a larger caliber for this purpose.

At what maximum distance do you feel the 6.5 would prove efficient for a competent shooter, bearing in mind the shock value for a clean knockdown?

Not sure - I don't hunt. I don't think you would be significantly handicapped at distances out to 400 yards

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I am not the only one who can make 800 yard shots on elk/bears/deer. I am just one of the skilled few who knows what it takes to do so. The great thing about it is, I can choose when to take my shot. If its blowing gail force winds, the obvious choice is not to shoot. However, early morning/late evening is when there is very little to no wind at all. Not saying there isn't any wind at all, because at ranges past 600 yards, there is always something that blows your bullet a tad, but when you put over 1000 rounds or at least 500-600 a year though your rifle, you start to learn a thing or two about it. Target shoots dont get to pick what day they shoot in the wind or not, there match is set for a date and thats that. The number 1 thing for hunting at LR is wind. When you shoot early/late evening, you pretty much take that equation out. If its blowing more then about 5mph, I wont and dont take a shot. Elevation is easy. You make a good drop chart and verify it by actually shooting out to that distance. Pretty easy to me. Put a harris bi-pod on, fold out the legs into prone position and what steadier can you possibly be?? I have shot every animal using a bi-pod past 300 yards. Animals usually have no awareness of you if you haven't already spooked them. So you do actually have all the time in the world to get ready for the shot and take all your precautionary readings. Wind, range, clicks, rest. To a skilled and practiced shooter, with the right equipment and knowlege to use it, all I'm saying is that 800 yards for deer, elk/bear size targets is not that hard when you practice at that distance REGULARLY. He asked for opinions on LR cartridge, so I gave it.

 

[pshooter]

Hi Asa.

I have talked to Peter Jackson a couple of times in the past and a close friend who is a local firearms dealer knows him quite well.

Regarding local law, I have had a .338 Lap. Mag. in the past and sold it just before it was banned at Bisley. So getting another mag. calibre on my licence would not be a problem.

The only thing I would double check is legislation regarding having something built in the US and being shipped here. Barrel replacement issues would not be a problem here (apart from cost) but, of course, I would double check that.

My local club allowed me to use the .338 and there are a couple of Ministry of Defence ranges locally that would not have a problem with the 7mm.

Remington. Many thanks for your experience with respect to hunting. It helps me greatly to get the benefit of that experience alongside Asa's target experience. Seeing both sides of the coin helps me greatly when building a picture of what I need to purchase to cover myself properly.

I do believe as you say that I would have to hit the 1,000 rounds a year mark to gain the experience I need. After all, I don't want to run around wounding animals. There's no pleasure in that. In all honesty, the reason I have been asking target shooters and hunters these questions, is that I want to gain a rifle with the greatest accuracy and knock down power. Asking both types of shooter will help me put together the best rifle I can afford.

I have been searching the second-hand market here recently but there's nothing around to meet my requirements.

I have to say the 7mm Rem. Mag. is at the top of my list knowing that the legal requirements here are covered. If that's an issue when it comes to importing then I would look at it again.

Thanks.

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

One more quick question: Why does your government care whether your cartridge of choice has a moniker of magnum? Why would it matter whether you have an '06, .303 British, or a 7MM Rem Mag? Aren't they all damn powerful, having harvested animals all over the globe?

Did I miss something here?

 

[pshooter]

When I had the .338 I had to put on my licence Lap. Mag.

I actually don't think that this is a government thing. Each police force interprets the laws for itself. Added to that the Firearms Officers are not police officers but civilians attached to the police. They sometimes seem to want to interpret the law for themselves too!

One area may insist you say Rem Mag or Lap Mag and another may not!

We live in a country which is vehemently anti-gun from the government downwards. 99.9% of gun crime in this country is committed by people using guns which have long been banned here, handguns, semi autos above 22 rimfire etc yet, when a crime occurs, there is always an outcry to ban guns. Gun fear in this country is actually a UN inspired thing that our government has fully bought into. It's fear based and we are told that it is UN policy that all gun owners be registered with them in the future but the plan is to take all of our guns away. So we hear.

My police authority is pretty good and once they get to know you as a competent shooter they are a little more relaxed with you. ONLY A LITTLE!
But we still have to jump through hoops sometimes law or not.

We do not have the right to bear arms as we are frequently reminded. Although 100 years ago we did have that right. Seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle :roll:

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

When I first got into LRshooting, I was using my RUger 25-06. I shot the barrel out in 2.5 years. I put about 3300 rounds in 2.5 years. That tells you something. I also put over 1000 rounds in my 300 RUM the last 2 years. IN my .222 Rem I put about 1000 rounds a year down it. I have had my .220 swift for about 9 months and I have put over 500 rounds through it. I like to say I shoot more then the average person, therefor I can shoot longer distances because I practice at 300 and over. I dont even target shoot at distances shorter then that becasue there is no point to it. I am a LRshooter and thats that. I like to help someone getting into it as much as possible. What I dont like is people that dont really know a thing about it telling there sides. There are 2 ways to look at everything I guess. There are a lot of non belivers out there and untill they actually see it for themselves, they will always be nonbelievers. You wont go wrong with your choice of a 7 mag, I guarantee you that. It has won more then its fair share of 1000 yard records, but most have been broken by newer cartridges. At one point in time though, it was a very accurate 1000 yard cartridge and still, there is just a little better now a days. It still is more gun then 90% of people really need or realize the power they have. LIke I said before, all a magnum does is give someone more reach, if they know how to apply it and use it. If nobody wants to shoot farther then 300 yards, a 25-06 is all the gun anyone would ever need.

 

[Tom1911]

pshoter,

Isn't ironic that our Second Amendment was James Madison's insurance against government tyranny as practiced by King George III? In essence, it was the result of our once being under his rule; therefore, but for England we probably wouldn't have our right to keep and bear arms.

I am superficially aware of the throes of dying freedom our relatives across the Atlantic are enduring. I think maybe our National Rifle Association ought to expand to Europe. Or you could uproot your family and move to Wyoming where gun rights are protected.

My having had intimate exposure to social science, I have yet to be exposed to any research that indicates gun control is efficacious. In fact, it was demonstrable lack of efficacy that doomed reenacting the failed Brady Bill. I was surprised by our congress doing the right thing by abiding by scientific findings as opposed to emotional rhetoric in enacting law. In contrast, it is neither ironic nor coincidental that states with liberal concealed carry laws have the lowest crime rates vis-a-vis states with harsh laws. Washington DC, California, & NYC have strict gun laws and high rates of crime. Wyoming has liberal gun control laws and virtually no crime.

 

[Tom1911]

remingtonman_25_06,

No one cares how far you shoot at targets; in fact, I would defend your right to shoot at miles should you so desire. However, when shooting at game at the distances you proclaim, your actions can place our sport in jeopardy. We cannot sustain repeated attacks to our ethical conduct and expect our sport to survive. California, a bellwether state, should be example for all. Mountain lion hunting was banned via ballot initiative after hunters were portrayed as cruel. In fact, this state has had more than one initiative succeed that served to encroach on hunters' abilities to enjoy their sport.

If you read the posts here from hunters throughout the world you'll find tremendous knowledge of rifles and hunting. We know how far a rifle cartridge is capable of shooting, and we pretty well know how far hunters should shoot at specific game under field conditions. I am not impressed that you shoot at game at distances most hunters consider unethical. If you really want to impress most of us, explain how you spotted your quarry a mile away, assessed it, conducted an excruciating two hour stalk closing the distance to three hundred yards, and finally felled it with a well-placed shot. Now that's impressive. In contrast anyone can buy a .300 RUM and shoot across canyons.

 

[pshooter]

Uprooting the family to Wyoming would be first on my list but God has a job for us right here in England. Go figure!

Believe it or not we have a National Rifle Association but it seems to be a bit of a paper tiger here and tends to bow down to government rather than stand up for the rights of shooters that pay good money into it! But it's all we have so we support it and try to change it from the inside.

But the States has been on my prayer list for a long, long time!

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

Well, it is important to follow God's plan. But when He decides you're able to move to the states, we would be fortunate to have another voter for liberty. Sadly, as in your country, too many immigrants have moved here looking for what the government will give them. We need more immigrants like you, just like your forefathers were, who move here to make the USA a better place.

Are you preparing for the move? What precisely do you have to do? I would imagine INS will be a snap. Can you work on citizenship before you actually move? What kind of work do you do? Have you inquired about job opportunities in Wyoming?

It is ironic, is it not, that this was once your country and now you have to apply for citizenship?





Godspeed,

Tom

 

[pshooter]

I am a preacher and Bible teacher. I know though that in these days God has work for me to do in England. My country is in a very dark place these days.

I don't like to say it but it would be near impossible for me as a private citizen to gain entry to the United States. If I were invited to start a church or something then I would be 'looked at' on religious grounds. When I really did look at it some years ago there was a directive in place here from the US Embassy that basically said if you are "Anglo Saxon" you would not be considered - unless you had a half a million dollars to invest and could employ at least five Americans or could fill a job that an American could not fill. So it has been made almost impossible. Although I don't know what the situation would be now. WAY, way back (about 25 years ago) I was a Territorial Army (National Guard) paratrooper and didn't realise that I could have joined the US military at that time! Ah well. It was God's plan to keep me here.

Like I said. God has work for me to do in the darkest part of the world right now - Europe - but I know my wife and I will be back. We have visited quite a few times and unless God says otherwise, we will come back again!

Thanks for wanting us there! I've always said that the UK should be State 51 but I think you could do without our 'problems' right now. :grin:

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Tom

I just dont agree with the saying anybody can buy a 300 RUMand shoot acroos a canyon. Yes they may be able to shoot across the canyon, but can they actually hit what there aiming at?? Theres a big difference. Most people cant even tolerate 300 RUM recoil. Lastly, a lot of people dont know how to use come up clicks which will play a great role in consistently hitting something beyond 300 yards. People still have to have the knowledge and practice a lot to become proficient at long range hunting, whether it be with a 25-06 or a 300 RUM. Not everybody and there dog can go buy a 300 RUM and make 700-800 yard shots just because they have a 300 RUM. Yes there are those kind of people, and those are the people that sight there gun in 1 time before hutning season and call it good. Those are the onesyou should be worrying about,not the person who shoots over 1,500 rounds a year and has the right equipment and knows how to use it. The guy who can hit 8" targets to 800 yards has all the right in the world to shoot at an animal that far if he practices that far. Look at all the wounded deer each year still shot by the average hunter who sights his gun in 1 time a year. I'll bet thousands. OR the guy who takes a running shot at deer at 200 yards andhits him in the guts only to never find him. Once again, i'll bet thousands. And theres people that are worried about the very skilled marksmen who practice over and over to only have 1 shot, whether it be 300 yards or 800 yards, at least he knows he can make it. Thats the point.