High fence hunting ranches

[Thebear_78]

In that instance would the fence really be any different than a river, or rock face hillside. There are natural borders found all over nature too. The kudu would be familiar with all of them fence included. Is it unfair to hunt a natural funnel like a mountain saddle, or canyon?

I’ve hunted blacktail on smaller islands in PWS, some not much bigger than 20,000 acres and judging by my success rate it was quite sporting.


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I think that it still is different many times from fair chase due to genetic manipulation. The animals sometimes are not the same due to being selectively bred, sometimes like livestock, and then hunted in such a controlled environment that they no longer act natural. A natural boundary with a native population is quite different from a genetically modified man made population/boundary.

I often think that wild populations suffer from the same “breeding” by the selective harvest of animals. When you have an arbitrary rule such as 4 points or more an one side for whitetails you are effectively breeding bucks with fewer points as young bucks with fewer points breed more does than those with 4 or more per side. What you will find is a greater number of mature 6 or fewer point bucks.

Areas of brow point restricted moose areas have more and more 2x2 brow bull moose. Luckily the 50” restriction still allows for harvest of mature 2x2 brow moose.


Any time you set an arbitrary harvest requirement you are selecting for the opposite genetically speaking.

My point was not to endorse high fence hunting it was to play devils advocate for the specific exceptions I mentioned. It seems especially important in places like Africa. I’m afraid there would be no animals to hunt there without them. They are probably the single greatest tool in preserving these species for the future.

It was also to point out that many of the techniques we all use could be considered as unfair chase as high fences, ie baiting, water hole or food plot setting. I still consider those things as viable hunting strategy. Even Europe and dr mike have to remember when natural blocking and topography-were used to run buffalo off jumps, or target caribou at strategic water crossings.

I guess the big 20k+ fenced areas don’t bother me as long as the animals are wild. Kind of like the famous quote about defining pornography. Just like Justice Stewart, when it comes to fair chase, I know it when I see it. It’s up to use to individually decide what that means for all of us.


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[Thankful Otter]

Bear78. I am currently studying this and find your comments to be timely, at least for me.

I am not a high fence hunting advocate and those who say the fence is like a river or highway in a natural environment, I can only relate to what I know and experience. Since I only hunt "The Territories", highways are pretty far and few between and the new one in the Yukon would not deter an animal from crossing. Animals, like the Caribou, Moose, and Bear are excellent swimmers and a river or even ocean ( polar bears ) will not slow them down.

I am one of those "young people" and to be honest I hear it all the time from other "young people", who ask why do you hunt, make clothes, live in a small town with no mall, etc etc etc, so I know exactly what you are talking about and possibly that is one of the reasons that I enjoy the company of our senior citizens like Dr Mike and April and others.

Bear78 brings up another point, which would not relate to big game, but we trap and that is sure as heck not "fair chase". What about tree stands and blinds, one is not "chasing" anything---but when it is all said and done, for me personally I am not a high fence advocate. With one possible exception, I have zero knowledge about Africa nd therefore I will not comment in regards to the high fence ranches on that continent

 

[Blkram]

In reviewing responses to this thread, I have to mention that we (including me) must be careful not to cover everyone in a group with the same broad brush. While I had said that the younger generation seems to have lost some of the values, and perhaps ethics, that we of the older generations value and prioritize, I must recognize that there are those amongst them that do have these values, such as the farm kids and others that have been taught those values and priorities by their parents, grandparents, other family members and mentors. We need to recognize and applaud them when we see/meet them or witness them demonstrating those values we adhere to.

But That raises the issue as to the root of the problem; why aren't more of these young(er) people not receiving these same lessons, values and ethics? And what can we do to be a bigger part of the solution vs being a part of those perpetuating the problem?

For many of the youth today, is part of the problem being the lack of opportunity for them to be exposed to these lessons and values due to their urban isolation? Or lack of awareness and education? Or is it due to the mentality of those teaching them?

 

[EastTNHunter]

I want to make sure that everyone realized that my comments weren’t meant to besmirch anyone. I’m guilty of coming across in the wrong way in person, much less online. There are many variables to this, obviously, and my feelings about ethics and preferences in hunting go beyond just the high fence part. Many of my feelings about food plots and habitat manipulation, in addition to baiting, hunting methods, etc, are personal preferences and shouldn’t be misconstrued as me looking down on someone who disagrees.

For instance, I hunt from a treestand in some locations simply because there is no other way to hunt. Property size, topography, etc play into this, even if my preference is to hunt from the ground. Nowhere that I hunt (small parcels of public land) in my area are conducive or safe for still hunting or spot and stalk, but I would love to hunt that way and really consider it to be the “purest” and preferred method of hunting.

 

[sask boy]

I am also on the side of no high fence hunts but I do understand about the question of area. In Saskatchewan there is not alot of high fence hunting I only know of a couple places up north. My nephew has 13 quarters of land and when we get drawn for Moose in that area (we have hunted for 40 years) that is not hunting it is harvesting because the Moose on farmland have no natural enemies. As a group we make our own rules on what we harvested in 2016 we were drawn for cows and calves only. The rule made was that we would only take a dry cow and leave the cow/calf pairs alone we shot 3 mature cows in a total hunting time of likely 2 to 3 hours.
I know some people might call Whitetail hunting in southeast Saskatchewan a canned hunt because of the numbers of animals that are available but again we as a group only take mature bucks.
In Whitetail hunting it is a chess game because you will never find a Monster Whitetail that is not very smart .

Blessings,
Dan

 

[Songdog]

I don’t care for high-fence hunting..... no matter the size of the plot.

I don’t care for hunting bears over bait.... no matter the law.

I don’t care for hunting cougars with hounds.... no matter the law.

BUT.... I will never oppose anyone’s right to participate in those activities.

 

[Thebear_78]

Anyone who thinks hunting cougars with dogs is easy has clearly never tried it!!!!! It’s an incredibly tough hunt and one of the only ways to be selective in your cougar harvest.

Baited bears are a similar prospect for selective harvest, plus few things are more enjoyable than watching bears interact. I’ve spent hours watching sows and cubs at a bait, Both black and brown, They are amazing animals.


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[Songdog]

Not saying it’s not hard, or rewarding..... or that’s it’s unethical in any way. It simply is not my cup of tea, which is my primary point. You don’t have to participate, or even condone it.... but as a hunting fraternity, it’s important to support the rights of others to do it.

PS.... watching bears “interact” at a bait station.... is akin to watching people at the welfare office. Not exactly a “natural habitat” scenario.

I agree on the selected harvest ability while shooting treed/baited critters.... that’s why I consider those activities an important part of our conservation efforts. I just choose not to participate in those activities because they aren’t appealing to me.

 

[Thebear_78]

Not going to get into a pissing match with you. Congrats you’ve made it to my ignore list, one of only two on this forum.


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[Songdog]

You did.... then deleted it. I read it.... it was well thought out. I disagree with your “natural” portion... but again, you deleted it.

Don’t know what I said that was so very offensive to you?

 

[Thankful Otter]

In reviewing responses to this thread, I have to mention that we (including me) must be careful not to cover everyone in a group with the same broad brush. While I had said that the younger generation seems to have lost some of the values, and perhaps ethics, that we of the older generations value and prioritize, I must recognize that there are those amongst them that do have these values, such as the farm kids and others that have been taught those values and priorities by their parents, grandparents, other family members and mentors. We need to recognize and applaud them when we see/meet them or witness them demonstrating those values we adhere to.

But That raises the issue as to the root of the problem; why aren't more of these young(er) people not receiving these same lessons, values and ethics? And what can we do to be a bigger part of the solution vs being a part of those perpetuating the problem?

For many of the youth today, is part of the problem being the lack of opportunity for them to be exposed to these lessons and values due to their urban isolation? Or lack of awareness and education? Or is it due to the mentality of those teaching them?

April, my apologizes for going off subject but I wanted to let everyone know, that as a "young person", I agree with the above quoted post 100% !!!!!! I see it everyday, the young putting down the advise of older people, to the extent of ridiculing the older person for trying to show them a different way. Everything I know i have learned from my elders and I thank them for taking the time to teach me. I also have said several times on this forum that people like Dr Mike, April, Earle, Hodgeman ( well he is not old ), Guy, Salmonchaser, etc etc etc-----have forgotten more than I know

Now to address those who have taken issue with my response to Bear 78, not on the open forum---I was agreeing with him for crying out load and just happen to be studying that issue, as we speak. I agreed with him on both points. Reread my response and then please go hassle someone else!

Sometimes I think the entire world has gone off the tracks . Yesterday our leader here in Canada scolded someone in the audience for say "mankind" in their sentence as it may offend a woman. I saw that the yearly father.daughter dance for a middle school that has been conducted for years has been cancelled as it may upset a daughter being raised by a gay couple who does not have a "father", so to speak. Possibly 40 years ago a woman who was in her 20,s said a man ask her out, again, after she said no to his first invitation and that she has never forgotten that and that in her mind it was another type of harassment --as a woman, I felt she needed to get a life, and what about all the girls that was looking forward ti the father/daughter dance, are their feelings important, and I think "mankind" has always meant, all of us

And you wonder why I prefer to spend my time in the wilderness with the wolves and bears!

 

[DrMike]

And you wonder why I prefer to spend my time in the wilderness with the wolves and bears!

"Animalkind," Cheyenne; "animalkind."

 

[bdbrown66]

In reviewing responses to this thread, I have to mention that we (including me) must be careful not to cover everyone in a group with the same broad brush. While I had said that the younger generation seems to have lost some of the values, and perhaps ethics, that we of the older generations value and prioritize, I must recognize that there are those amongst them that do have these values, such as the farm kids and others that have been taught those values and priorities by their parents, grandparents, other family members and mentors. We need to recognize and applaud them when we see/meet them or witness them demonstrating those values we adhere to.

But That raises the issue as to the root of the problem; why aren't more of these young(er) people not receiving these same lessons, values and ethics? And what can we do to be a bigger part of the solution vs being a part of those perpetuating the problem?

For many of the youth today, is part of the problem being the lack of opportunity for them to be exposed to these lessons and values due to their urban isolation? Or lack of awareness and education? Or is it due to the mentality of those teaching them?

April, my apologizes for going off subject but I wanted to let everyone know, that as a "young person", I agree with the above quoted post 100% !!!!!! I see it everyday, the young putting down the advise of older people, to the extent of ridiculing the older person for trying to show them a different way. Everything I know i have learned from my elders and I thank them for taking the time to teach me. I also have said several times on this forum that people like Dr Mike, April, Earle, Hodgeman ( well he is not old ), Guy, Salmonchaser, etc etc etc-----have forgotten more than I know

Now to address those who have taken issue with my response to Bear 78, not on the open forum---I was agreeing with him for crying out load and just happen to be studying that issue, as we speak. I agreed with him on both points. Reread my response and then please go hassle someone else!

Sometimes I think the entire world has gone off the tracks . Yesterday our leader here in Canada scolded someone in the audience for say "mankind" in their sentence as it may offend a woman. I saw that the yearly father.daughter dance for a middle school that has been conducted for years has been cancelled as it may upset a daughter being raised by a gay couple who does not have a "father", so to speak. Possibly 40 years ago a woman who was in her 20,s said a man ask her out, again, after she said no to his first invitation and that she has never forgotten that and that in her mind it was another type of harassment --as a woman, I felt she needed to get a life, and what about all the girls that was looking forward ti the father/daughter dance, are their feelings important, and I think "mankind" has always meant, all of us

And you wonder why I prefer to spend my time in the wilderness with the wolves and bears!

Hear, hear!!

Cheyenne, thank you for your insight. You have wisdom beyond your years. Keep on keepin' on.

And Dr. Mike...touche.

 

[Blkram]

And you wonder why I prefer to spend my time in the wilderness with the wolves and bears!

"Animalkind," Cheyenne; "animalkind."

We could all learn lessons on appropriate behaviour amongst our species and/or pack mates from the animals!

Those that do not adhere to the pecking order are quickly and decisively dealt with; put in their place, run off or killed...in order to preserve the health of the pack or species.

May seem harsh to some people, but it has an order to it that ensures the survival of the species.

In my culture, the same rules applied in tribal custom and laws. If you did soemthing to disrespect the family, the elders or the community, you were brought forth in front of the entire community and the elders would determine guilt and punishment. This would include public shaming and punishment (beatings or the running of the gauntlet - sorry, used a term you would be more familiar with, as it has a different name in our culture -) banishment or death. In the case of banishment, this was akin to a death sentence as you were banished from the territory and could never come back or have contact with anyone in the community or your family. And outside of your territory, you were enemy to those of other territories and were likely to be killed on sight.

I think you can see the parallel between mankind and animalkind here!

Sorry to digress here, but thought it relevant here...and back to the originally thread programming!

 

[truck driver]

OOOOooooo I love these discussions.

 

[Bruce Mc]

I too enjoy these discussions. What really chaps me about high fences is that they deny your neighbors the free range of the animals on their property also. I feel for the guy that bought 50 or 60 acres of land so he could hunt a little only to have all his neighbors put up high fences so they can control what is taken.

 

[Guy Miner]

Interesting discussion.

I often hunt a "pheasant club" - particularly after our other upland game seasons close down. The area I live is rich with chukar, and not bad for quail or grouse. But there are no wild pheasants. And I dearly love hunting, cooking and eating pheasant. So yes, you've often seen my posts of my pheasant hunts. And I try to remember when posting that its at the "hunt club" and that they're not wild birds.

I prefer hunting the wild chukar here... Oh my goodness... 4 hours of walking, climbing 1,000 - 2,000' of steep hills, gaining elevation every step for an hour or more... And I figure it's a huge success when I come home with two of the doggone things! :grin:

The flatland pheasant club hunt is very, very easy in comparison. But still a nice hunt. Pleasant actually. Nothing hard about it.

Now, on to big game hunting and fences. You guys 'n gals should know by now that I like to hunt hard. I like to walk a long way, actually enjoy packing out my kill. I've hunted public and private lands. The private lands here in the west are just ranchlands, with the typical three-strand barb wire fence. Antelope scoot under the fence (that was a surprise to me) deer bound over it. Those fences don't seem to impeded the movement of the herds in the least.

Right now I'm talking to a South African professional hunter I've known for some years. We're talking about a hunt in South Africa for plains game. Game that would likely be found in far, far fewer numbers, or even be extinct if not for the farmers/ranchers putting up some high fences and charging Americans & Europeans to hunt.

The hunting areas seem to be in the neighborhood of 20,000 - 40,000 acres... Am thinking that I won't even see a fence most days while hunting.

His info has convinced me that these high fence, South African hunting areas are not an evil thing.

We may also go to Namibia for some truly free-range hunting, and I think I'd like that even more.

Plans are still up in the air. But, I don't think high-fence operations are all bad.

Now, a one or two acre high fence enclosure to hunt a captive animal? No thank you. Not my thing. 40,000 acres is entirely different.

Regards, Guy

 

[salmonchaser]

As I reflect on this I consider I guide canned" pheasant hunts a couple of days a week. Over the last four years I've learned there is a wide variety in how these places are managed. Some the dogs catch 3/5 of the birds and the minimal cover lets you know where the other two will be. Others look like a South Dakota farm.
Management objectives/cost will control what you find.
In our case we release birds through out the week; with one notable exception we harvest about 60% of the birds released for any given group. Those that survive wild up pretty quick. We buy our birds from Kansas because of their reputation as strong flyers. Many of them leave the farm.
Sorry, not a sales pitch. I have never seen a high fence hunt but given enough room, an emphasis on experience, it could be a good hunt. Perhaps it's simply a matter of degrees.
My BIL ranch is about 25 miles North of Yellowstone. He has a chunk on the west side of the river, several thousand acres. The neighbors north and south, hunt hard and it's forest service to the west. He doesn't let anybody get out and hunt, you sit and wait. Even after you shoot, you wait until the rest are out of sight. Once the elk are in there they don't leave unless you push them. They could leave but because of how the hunting style was adapted, they generally don't. It isn't too different from a canned hunt thinking about it.
As a guide I focus on the experience, that's what most people want. Pheasant hunting, I know where the survivors go. I'll take one or two "leggy" guys, put the dogs at heal and stalk those patches as if I'm bow hunting a big buck. It's the only way to get those birds. That's what they talk about at dinner. But it's still largely a canned hunt, just better then most.
Fishing is the same philosophy. When people are shopping for a trip the neophytes will ask how many fish they'll catch. I counter by asking if they golf. Most say yes. I ask if I go with them to their favorite course, will I brake 90,They always respond "I've never seen you golf" there's the answer. I do guarantee a great adventure. Ok fishing, even in Alaska is a far cry from a canned hunt. The point I think I'm trying to make perhaps is never and always are pretty strong words, we're all in this together. I don't hunt over a feeder but I'm happy to shoot a bull as he steps out of the timber to feed, isn't that just a matter of degrees? Bears on bait? Can't do it in Oregon. During fall in Alaska, any where that drains into Bristol bay or the Pacific, the bears are on the fish, granted the fish are thinning out, and the berries. They'll walk right past you coming and going. Singularly focused, more predictable, as far as where they'll be, than a white Tail in rut.
$20,000.00 for a good bear hunt on the peninsula. I guarantee you it'll be over "bait" All the doughnuts I could carry wouldn't really make any difference if it were legal in that area. Hunting big game with dogs? My dogs don't even look at deer, they know better. I've read where that is the game down south. In Scandinavia they run moose with dogs.
In Oregon and Washington they outlawed dogs for cougar and bear. The population exploded. When I was a kid a cougar tag was harder to get then an Antelope tag. Now it's dang near a giveaway and you can buy it after the season opens.
A hound hunt is one of the toughest hunts I've ever done. It was outlawed in Oregon because they effectively divided the hunting community.
These discussions are great. Rational men and women should revel at the opportunity to engage in them. Would I do a high fence hunt? Depends. If I finally make it to Africa that might be the option, but I'll ask a lot of questions about how big etc. before I send money.
Let my dogs run deer, never. If April wants to take me to Scandinavia to shoot moose being chased by an Elk hound, hell yes. I'll even leave the 338 at home and use a piss ant 6.5 x 55.



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[salmonchaser]

Sorry, kinda pecked away at this all day between chores. Needed some editing.


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[Guy Miner]

Sorry, kinda pecked away at this all day between chores. Needed some editing.

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It's good.