How do they do it?

[elkeater2]

I've been reloading for a lonng time, and follow standard load development procedures. Never had to learn anything the hard way yet. What gets me is this: How do the ammunition manufacturers come up with the loads they do - which are often quite close to the max velocity and pressure data we see in our loading manuals? Some, like the Hornady 'light magnums' even exceed what we can do with available powders, etc.
We know that changes in seating depth, primer type, brass,powder lot, bullet brand, etc. can tip the balance as we approach the legendary maximum for our own load/rifle combo. Yet it seems that the ammo we can buy over the counter can produce the same velocity results we approach with so much caution. Do they take a sample group of production rifles and check for problems?
Since they do get it done somehow, it makes me wonder why the load manual producers can't do essentially the same thing - develop, test, and document some "one size fits all....pretty well" loads. You want 2925 fps out of your 30-06 with a standard lead core 150 gr bullet? Then use this load with confidence: show all the exact details for primer, brass, COL, powder, seating depth, and bullet. I enjoy tweaking and developing a lot -but there are times it would be nice to crank out a couple hundred prairie dog loads without making three trips to the range and shooting up 20-30 rounds doing workup development.
So how do they do it?
Thanks everyone!

 

[JD338]

elkeater2

Welcome to the forum.

If you ran the factory loads through a chronograph, you would most likely see something different than what is advertised. Also need to keep in mind that every rifle is different. Using the same box of ammunition, your rifle may shoot faster or slower than mine.....

Keep in mind that some factory loads are listing velocities that are unrealistic in off the rack firearms. Longer high quality barrels with tight chambers will give different results than you would find in a typical factory gun. The ammo manufactures may also use some powders that are not available to us.
High Velocity sells and a lot of data you see is from "cooked books".


As for reloading data, the big issue is liability. No one will give you a recipe that could be potentially dangerous to fire. Loads are subject to SAAMI, who list max pressures for a given caliber.

Hope this helps.

JD338

 

[Ol` Joe]

1 thing ammo makers have we don`t is a lab.
The manufactures don`t use canister powders for their ammo. They buy powder in bulk by the boxcar that is produced to meet a given spec and they then fine tune the charge to produce the result they want. If the burn rate varies the powder charge will change to reflect it. Try pulling the bullet from a couple shells of the same brand and type but different lots. You`ll find the powder charge most likely different in each. The powder itself may even be different, say ball in one and extruded in another. What ever the maker finds in bulk that fits the burn spec.

The short answer is, the manufactures have worked up a load in the lab and re-evaluate it with every shift change, component or lot change and have the means to verify the result.
We have to work up each load and trust the component makers consistancy in their product. We have no way to measure the changes in powder burn rate, bullet hardness, case capasity, ect, except by trial and error.
We do have more fun playing with ours then they do with theirs though I`d bet :wink:

 

[hubcap]

Shortly after buying a chrony along about 1984 or 85 I spent some time checking factory ammo velocities from standard barrel lengths in 30:30-20", .270-22" and the 06 in 22" barrel length. The results were that velocities were well below factory advertised for both Winchester and Remington ammo. I realise that my tests were a long time back and things may have changed in the case of those hornady light mag. loads. I think JD338 is probably right on with the cooking the books comment. It was normal to see velocity from 150 to 250 FPS slower than advertised back in the 80,s. Wow hornady claims 3215 for a.270 130 grain bullet in their light mag. load. If velocity like that is true from a 22" barrel or even a 24"then all we can say is buy it if you can afford it. Some of that factory super duper ammo is too spendy for me no matter what speed they claim.

 

[Guest]

If you've got a 270Win and want to find a fast load like that to handload, take a look at the data from Accurate Powders on using MagPro in the 270Win. They manage to get 3200fps from a 130gr out of a 24" barrel, as per their results. I haven't tried it for that, but I did get right at published velocities for a couple of other rounds I've tried MagPro in.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

There is a reason we call chronograph's "de-liars"

As for 3200 with a 130gr bullet out of a 270 win?

That can be achieved in a 26" barrel with about 60.5gr of H4831. Of course that's a little more then you will probably see listed in most modern books.

 

[elkeater2]

Good response, thanks. I think the factory numbers are still inflated - I chronoed Rem. 150 .308 Win and it came out 2720 - 2730. The Remmy number is 2820.

I'm sure the factory labs checking and changing the recipe to match the burn, etc. must be common. We all know that we can't take identical components off the shelf from multiple sources and have things come out the same. For example, if in a 25-06 you might use Winchester brass, WLR standard primers, Reloder 22 and 100 grain Hornady interlocks if you change suppliers and lots on any of them you will not likely come out the same. Hopefully not dangerously different, but for sure not the same.

Thanks for the responses. I'm still intrigued by the good loads you see on the web forums where someone says " this has worked well in 6 different rifles". They are approaching what I referred to as a one size fits all, at least for acceptable velocity and accuracy. It just depends on what you consider acceptable. I handload for optimal accuracy first, with acceptable velocity, barrel life and brass life all important as well. I play with seating depth, .2 gr. powder increments, alternate primers and neck turning. So my question was more for discussion purposes rather than me looking for a real solution to a problem.
Elkeater2

 

[FOTIS]

Welcome to the forum Elkeater .

How they do it is access to stuff we will never have like proprietary loading techniques and special blends of high energy powders.

For instance if you pull a Hornady light mag and try to reassemble it you will not be able to do it. You can not fit the powder back in!
Many have tried everyone failed. 8)

 

[elkeater2]

Thanks POP!
I'm the guy who emailed you about registration problems a couple weeks ago.

Hornady must hook up a vacuum to the primer pocket to suck the powder in, then prime afterwards. Unconventional, but stranger things have happened :grin:

BTW, can you run a Quickload on 25/06, 120 Hornady HP, 28" barrel and H4831SC? Does your Quickload recognize RL17 yet?

Thanks
Elkeater2

 

[FOTIS]

Thanks POP!
I'm the guy who emailed you about registration problems a couple weeks ago.

Hornady must hook up a vacuum to the primer pocket to suck the powder in, then prime afterwards. Unconventional, but stranger things have happened :grin:

BTW, can you run a Quickload on 25/06, 120 Hornady HP, 28" barrel and H4831SC? Does your Quickload recognize RL17 yet?

Thanks
Elkeater2

No rl 17 yet.....



Cartridge : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet : .257, 120, Hornady HP 2560
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch or 82.55 mm
Barrel Length : 28.0 inch or 711.2 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4831

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 44.80 2563 1750 31936 8487 89.7 1.675
-18.0 85 45.92 2626 1838 34139 8755 91.0 1.630
-16.0 87 47.04 2690 1928 36497 9013 92.2 1.587
-14.0 89 48.16 2754 2020 39020 9262 93.4 1.539
-12.0 91 49.28 2817 2115 41724 9500 94.4 1.492
-10.0 93 50.40 2881 2212 44622 9726 95.4 1.447
-08.0 95 51.52 2945 2311 47723 9938 96.3 1.403
-06.0 98 52.64 3008 2412 51073 10137 97.1 1.361
-04.0 100 53.76 3072 2515 54638 10320 97.8 1.320
-02.0 102 54.88 3135 2620 58444 10486 98.4 1.281 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 56.00 3199 2726 62531 10635 98.9 1.243 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 106 57.12 3262 2834 66924 10766 99.3 1.207 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 58.24 3324 2944 71652 10878 99.7 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 59.36 3387 3056 76746 10969 99.9 1.138 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 112 60.48 3449 3169 82245 11040 100.0 1.105 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 114 61.60 3510 3283 88188 11090 100.0 1.073 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 56.00 3334 2963 74328 10347 100.0 1.157 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 56.00 3011 2416 51076 10402 93.7 1.357




Cartridge : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet : .257, 120, Hornady HP 2560
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch or 82.55 mm
Barrel Length : 28.0 inch or 711.2 mm
Powder : IMR 7828

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 44.80 2589 1786 30743 9005 90.4 1.687
-18.0 85 45.92 2655 1878 32866 9293 91.7 1.643
-16.0 87 47.04 2721 1973 35139 9569 93.0 1.599
-14.0 89 48.16 2788 2071 37574 9832 94.2 1.556
-12.0 91 49.28 2854 2171 40184 10080 95.3 1.507
-10.0 93 50.40 2921 2273 42982 10311 96.3 1.461
-08.0 95 51.52 2987 2377 45992 10524 97.2 1.415
-06.0 98 52.64 3053 2484 49223 10718 97.9 1.372
-04.0 100 53.76 3119 2592 52698 10892 98.6 1.330
-02.0 102 54.88 3184 2702 56438 11044 99.1 1.290 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 56.00 3249 2813 60450 11173 99.5 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 106 57.12 3314 2927 64813 11279 99.8 1.214 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 58.24 3378 3041 69517 11360 100.0 1.178 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 59.36 3442 3157 74604 11416 100.0 1.142 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 112 60.48 3505 3273 80112 11461 100.0 1.109 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 114 61.60 3567 3391 86059 11501 100.0 1.076 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 56.00 3393 3067 73564 10726 100.0 1.157 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 56.00 3043 2468 48864 11039 94.5 1.374





Cartridge : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet : .257, 120, Hornady HP 2560
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch or 82.55 mm
Barrel Length : 28.0 inch or 711.2 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-25

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 84 46.40 2610 1815 30067 9282 96.5 1.706
-18.0 86 47.56 2676 1909 32171 9521 97.5 1.661
-16.0 88 48.72 2742 2004 34426 9738 98.3 1.617
-14.0 90 49.88 2808 2100 36850 9930 99.0 1.574
-12.0 92 51.04 2873 2199 39452 10097 99.5 1.525
-10.0 95 52.20 2937 2299 42248 10237 99.8 1.478
-08.0 97 53.36 3001 2399 45257 10349 100.0 1.431
-06.0 99 54.52 3064 2501 48494 10437 100.0 1.387
-04.0 101 55.68 3126 2603 51982 10519 100.0 1.345
-02.0 103 56.84 3187 2706 55747 10599 100.0 1.304 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 105 58.00 3248 2810 59810 10675 100.0 1.265 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 107 59.16 3308 2915 64203 10748 100.0 1.226 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 109 60.32 3367 3021 68952 10817 100.0 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 61.48 3426 3128 74110 10882 100.0 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 62.64 3485 3236 79705 10942 100.0 1.120 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 116 63.80 3543 3345 85753 10999 100.0 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 58.00 3367 3022 73922 10268 100.0 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 58.00 3062 2498 47657 11139 99.1 1.393

 

[pacer97]

Antelope_ sniper Hornady book #7 130 gr. interbond 62gr. H4831 it works good in my 270win. But only with Hornady 130s most likely hot for others

Alan.

 

[smitty81]

I read this on the hornady web sight...


3) High Power without Higher Pressure and Heat

The traditional way to achieve higher velocity is to increase case capacity and/or pressures. Hornady has found a better way — achieving more energy and flatter trajectories in standard cases using a cool burning powder and unique loading method. You get more power from your favorite standard and magnum rifles.

Thi is suppost to be some new type of powder................

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Elmer Kieth used to load 62gr of H4831 in the 270 with Winchester brass and 130 grain bullets. We tried the load about 20 years back, Actually chronographed it in Pop's back yard (cheyenne Wyoming), during a snow storm, at about 40 degrees below zero (no exageration) Even in those conditions, it chronographed above 3400 fps.

Of course, and the Myth Busters would say....Don't try this at home.....
Change the wrong component (like any of them), or shoot this on a hot day (above zero), and you could have some pressure issues.

Most Modern books stop around 60.5 Grains....which is where I stop.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Hornady sure tried to get the max of of these 2 (the 2 on the left)...I bought 3 boxes of Hornady like that...and 1 week later I bought 2 boxes of the Federals (the one on the right...and by far the hottest)...all overloaded. Just my luck...and I swore to never shoot factory ammo again after that (and I haven't either)

168 grain 308 Hornady Match ammo

 

[Ridgerunner665]

And that "NEW" method of loading Hornady is talking about is nothing new at all...

They mix the powders...(2 different burn rates), VERY dangerous business for guys like us...leave that to the ammo companies and their labs.

 

[hubcap]

Ya ridgerunner665 your right on with that hornady brass. Looks too hot with cratered primers. I bought two boxes of 30:30 leverevelution ammo and all 40 primers were cratered about like yours. They shot crappy too. I,ll stick to my own loads. At this point I,m feeling a little suspicious of hornady loads. The 30:30 ammo would not group decent at 25 yards much less at 100 yards. Another fella at my gun club had the same problem with the stuff. He won,t buy any more either. I think the jury is still out on at least some of the hornady loads.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Hubcap,

The primers don't look that bad (considering they were fired in a Remington...loose fitting firing pin, needs to be shimmed), but did you notice the ejector marks...notice the dark looking spots at about the 9 o'clock position on the headstamps (the "8" on the Federal brass is most noticeable)

I had to literally beat the bolt open with a hammer and a chunk of teflon after that Federal... with the Hornady's the bolt lift was a tad "sticky" but not stuck like the Federal left it.

 

[hubcap]

Ridge--- yep, I noticed. Darn good pictures by the way. Ejector marks are not a good thing. Time to back the load down. Excellent post on your part

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Excellent post on your part

Thank You...Antelope_Sniper suggested I put that pic in here...its also on the "Need photo's of excessive Pressure indicators" thread.

 

[Ol` Joe]

I`m not sure what the companies are doing to produce their "Hi Energy"/Lite Mag" ammo but it doesn`t involve raising the pressures.

A while ago, I ran a couple of rounds of Federal Hi-Energy 140gr Trophy Bonded, Hornady Lite Mag with 139 gr BTSP, and std Remington green box 120 gr Cor-Loct through my Walther BBL`ed M700 7-08 with a strain gage attached. The pressures of all three makes ran within 2000 ptu* according to my pressure trace. The std 120 gr factory load actually was close to the Hornady stuff for top pressures found. The Federal Hi-Energy was actually lower pressure the the Remington std stuff!

The Velocies of this stuff went 2845 fps for Federals, 2890 fps for Hornady and just broke 3000fps for the 120 gr Remington. This appears to be about 200 fps faster then a old lot of Remington 140 gr Cor-Loct ammo I chrono`ed a few years ago that went 2624 fps avg.


* I use "pressure trace units" not psi to discribe the pressures I record with my unit. I don`t adjust the machine to "calibrate" it to a given pressure, and the numbers are approximate values not exact.