How to cook a Wolf?

[BeeTee]

The wolves introduced to Yellowstone (and Montana, Idaho, et. al.) beginning in 1995 were the Canadian MacKenzie Valley Gray Wolf, subspecies Canis Lupus Occidentallis, which is not an endangered species, and never were. The "native" wolf, Canis Lupus Irremotus, is the endangered Timber Wolf that was originally found in the Rocky Mountains of the lower-48. The Canadian Wolf is the largest and most aggressive subspecies, which is the bulk of the problem, and they are non-native to this area. It's ironic that the Canadian Wolf will be responsible for the extinction of the endangered native Timber Wolf - of which a few existed in 1995.

Now, I don't claim that wolves never existed in western Montana pre/post settlement by whites. It's just that so little game existed here that wolf numbers must have also been very low.

During Lewis & Clark's time, the Rocky Mountain elk were largely plains animals. Small groups of elk have virtually no defense against wolves in the mountains. Against a small pack of the larger Canadian Wolf, even a large and healthy bull elk has no defense.

Sportsman's dollars are responsible for the deer/elk numbers and habitat set-aside/restoration we had/have. And now, hunting license and permit fees are paying for the destruction of the deer and elk herds by funding the wolf "recovery". Introducing the non-native Canadian MacKenzie Valley Gray Wolf to the lower 48 will someday be recognized as the worst wildlife disaster in the history of the country. BT

 

[Too Tall]

Another good Government Idea.

 

[Wondermutt]

You are a lucky individual to have been seen by an apex predator with a dog by your side, and have him sit down?

I have to agree with some of the others about the lack of responsible investigation of wolf attacks. My neighbor had a young hereford bull mauled and killed in the same manner as a wolf would do. Fish and game investigated it and set traps. They caught one coyote and told us there is no wolves in the area. This happened about 100 yards from our door step. We hear howling, but the DFG insists there are no wolf packs around here.

So, if I see one and its season, you bet I am gonna smoke one, or two or five.

 

[BeeTee]

Another local newspaper story...

January 15, 2013 - Stevensville mountain lion hunter loses dogs to wolves:
http://www.ravallirepublic.com/news/loc ... f887a.html

 

[DrMike]

Pretty dramatic story, BeeTee.

 

[BeeTee]

A little backstory... I hunted the same area back in the 1980s and early 1990s where the lion hunter recently lost his dogs. The "Nine Mile" area is about a dozen miles west of the city of Missoula, and was at one time a great place to hunt - it isn't any longer. As a state employee, I helped maintain a remote seismic station on a private ranch at the northern end of the Nine Mile valley, and got to know the ranchers pretty well. They even let me hunt there once in a while. A herd of about 75-100 elk and many-many White Tail deer lived on their ranch. While I never killed anything there, I had some great times calling in bulls during the archery season (though I screwed up a shot at a once-in-a-lifetime 7x7).

The ranch was eventually sold to actress Andie MacDowell in the early-mid 1990s, who forbid hunting, so it drifted off my radar as a place to hunt. Then, in the late 1990s, the Nine Mile area became a focal point for local news as introduced (relocated there unannounced in the dark of night) wolves began killing and terrorizing pet Llamas, dogs/cats, and other livestock. Shocking photos of pet Llamas, some dead and some still alive, but torn up so badly they had to be put down appeared in local news stories. Most of the locals who lived there hated wolves. There was no waxing poetic about the beauty of wolves when looking at your pet livestock after a midnight visit.

 

[longrangehunter]

So today I went for a walk up the mountain to fetch a target I left up there last Saturday..... I was testing the App "Shooter" on my phone and shooting from below 560 yards away. Anyway I decided to go for a walk while I was up there and came across a dead cow Elk near one of there favorite bedding areas. From the looks of it and the underside still a little on the warm side I'd say it died the day before. It appeared that maybe a Bobcat licked the chest fur down and made a very small opening, but too minimal to say for sure since it just it begun to snow this morning and there were no sign of any tracks.

But my point about even writing this again..... because I don't care to get into this mess, is that this Elk died from starvation! I had came across a single wolf track a few week prior while out hiking in the area above my house. Had that wolf only done his job and killed that poor starving animal long ago would have been a better death then to die like that!

I looked around the bare ground and saw nothing to eat for those animals. The snow is too deep in my valley for them to forage, and this hillside doesn't have Knapweed. But over the last few years I've noticed a hugh increase in moss growing in these areas that gets good sun and in this case faces south. I've even noticed it in my pasture where the ground cover hasn't done so well.

Every year around now I see these animals die off do to starvation, which is a terrible death. The wolf was meant to be a solution to some of these issues, but without proper ground cover for forage the local Elk and Deer wont stand a chance. With or without the Wolf!

When my time comes..... I only hope to die with dignity, and not parish away ill or starving to death.

 

[Woodycreek]

I would much rather see a wolf starve than have someone's pets or livestock attacked.

 

[BeeTee]

I talked to a reporter for the Ravalli Republic newspaper yesterday about the possibility of wolf sightings inside the city limits of Hamilton Montana (population 5k). My dad lives in a retirement community apartment just a few blocks from main street in Hamilton. The unconfirmed story indicated wolves were seen in their parking lots and nearby streets. The reporter is checking, but he did say wolves were positively identified just a short distance outside of town a few weeks back.

The Montana legislature and the governor passed a hurried law a week or so ago that upped the annual bag limit for wolf hunting. When the season began last fall, you could kill one wolf with a rifle, and take two by trapping (assuming you passed the state's certified trapping class), and you had to wait 5 days after purchasing a permit before using it. Now... you can kill three wolves with a rifle and there's just a 24 hour wait.

I think the tide is turning, but it'll take more effort... BT

 

[longrangehunter]

I would much rather see a wolf starve than have someone's pets or livestock attack.

I agree with you about someone's pet being attacked. I have a girlfriend who had her Golden Retriever attacked by two Coyotes a few years ago in the State of Washington near the Idaho border, and maybe yesterday? Although she was not around to confirm that but her Dog was freak out and a filthy mess. I also don't care to see any domesticated animal neglected or mistreated for that matter, but that's still goes on today!

I eat more red meat then most people, and chickens to, but honestly, what do you think is going through the minds of all those animals every single day during transportation to and at a slaughterhouse? Do you think they're calm, cool, and collective..... thinking this is just a stop over to somewhere better then the Farm?

Think about that one for a moment. Here's a number to look at copied from Wikipedia:
In the United States, around nine billion (an unverified number) animals are slaughtered every year[citation needed] (this includes about 150.4 million cattle, bison, sheep, hogs, and goats and 8.9 billion chickens, turkeys, and ducks;[citation needed] in 2009, 13,450,000 long tons (13,670,000 t) of beef were consumed in the U.S. alone.[1] In Canada, 650 million animals are killed annually.[2] In the European Union, the annual figure is 300 million cattle, sheep, and pigs, and four billion (an unverified number) chickens.[citation needed]

Even if those numbers were cut in half, that's a hugh number of animals that are put to death, and I don't think it's a joyous occasion that day for them! So why is it if a few cattle, in relative terms, get harmed or eaten a Headline? Like I said prior, your average pet, Cat or Dog will get harmed from there own kind in greater numbers then by a Wolf.

A far greater number of those missing pets are taken by other predators in this Country and around the World then Wolves alone. Which is why I think it's a trivial thing in relative terms. Hey, if you want something truly sad to think about..... think about the Rhinos, Elephants, and Gorillas over in Africa killed for just their Horns, Ivory, and hands just for profit! Now that is something worth fighting over to save. Which wouldn't take place if mankind didn't place a value on those animal body parts right!?! And you can blame some of the Chinese for that corruption taking place now and in the past.

Hey, here's the deal. There is a lot of bad things that take place each and everyday in this World, and I don't think we can point the finger at Mother nature when we as Humans have done more harm the good in a lot of different ways. Yes if it were not for conservation practices our game herds would have never grown to what they are today. I would also say in some parts of this County some Game animal numbers are down in part due to the Wolf. It is a fact that many Western hunters have noticed compared to prior years those animal herds are getting harder and harder to find.

But it is not solely the blame of Wolves alone! Montana, Wyoming and Idaho have a hugh dilemma with noxious weeds destroying millions of acres everyday that is THE FOOD SOURCE for those animals to survive. And if you'd ever like to go see some of the finest habitat in the Southwestern United States for Elk and game go visit the Apache Indian Reservation at White Mountain. There are more Elk there per acre then anywhere in the United States. Have a look around and you'll see what great habitat looks like, and no, they don't have Wolves, but the work very hard at proper timber management to the vegetation supply to support those animals in such high numbers. And here is another thing.... they don't let people in those areas to do whatever they want! It's patrolled by there game wardens to keep out people in there trophy areas.

Put it this way, if the Elk and Ungulates had more areas to feed and a healthier vegetive state there would be almost no starvation taking place each year, and those populations could grow. But it's a two fold dilemma taking place, being chased around by wolves and hunters, and few and few places to feed. That's what I see going on. Plus the disruption of more and more people enjoying the outdoors in these areas year around. Animals that lay up during the day because of activity that can and does prevent them from feeding or going to water due to that activity. Humans have populated more and more habitat then the surrounding areas can support certain types of wildlife. That is unless they become comfortable living in these areas where people live and feed in the back yards like you'll see in different parts of the Country. Evergreen Colorado comes to mind, so does Jasper B.C. or even Liberty lake Washington for that matter, which I see White tail Deer, Moose and Turkey every day of the week when I visit there.

I think anyone reading this should take a step back and look at the big picture. Wildlife and Land Management involves a lot of different aspects. Some of them are clear and not so clear, everyone has there own agenda. The Timber Companies aren't in favor of spending the funds to plant grass seed, or spray for noxious weeds that can and do get moved into forest lands. Land Developers are looking for that next beautiful piece of land for there next subdivision. So-on and so-on, you get the picture.

Maybe taking a step back and think of all the things we do as humans and what that "cause and effect" actually does..... We might leave this World we all call Earth a better place.

 

[Woodycreek]

I respect everyone's opinion on the forum including yours on the wolves even though I don't agree with you. When you start your lecture about farm animals is when ive had enough! Look at how many animals are slaughtered everyday and what's the big deal if a farmer loses a few? How about you take a step back and think about it? I spent my first 18 years on a beef farm busting my butt to help my family raise cattle. It's hard work that pays little and cost more every year just to keep going. Losing one calf much less a cow is huge. Virginia now has a coyote problem and our farm along with other farms in the area have lost calves to predation. Thats hard earned money gone because some beautiful four legged predator was hungry! So do you think I care to hear you bleeding heart essay on the poor wolves??? Nope!!! Why don't you start a farm and try to make money at it. Wonder how much you would like it when a wolf has dinner on your paycheck?

 

[elkeater2]

Elk, deer, and moose browse on different plants nearly all the time. Knapweed does not grow where much of these different browse species do. Nevertheless, it's nasty stuff and needs more attention than it has been getting from sportsmen.
I'm an old time Wyoming guy and when I was a kid, you could drive from Dubois to Jackson in the winter and see 40-50 moose easy. Many places from Sunlight Basin to the Hoback country you could see wintering elk not on refuges. Now you won't see many. I don't think knapweed chokes out willows, sorry. I'm positive it doesn't kill moose calves (or adults) outright. The big game herds that the sportsmen and conservation programs of this state established during the last century were a tremendous asset in many ways. The wintering, birthing, and summering habits and locations of those herds all happened without wolf predation. When the Canadian wolf strain got turned loose and coddled up to numbers beyond the original plan, our herds became a smorgasboard of dummies that did not and could not know how to deal with a predator invasion that was not ever part of their DNA. This is not Lewis & Clark's territory anymore, and can't be turned back to that. Canadian wolves are beautiful animals - in Canada. Siberian tigers are pretty in Siberia, too. The wolf is just as phony an introduction as is knapweed. In fisheries they have a term - invasive species. It fits the Wyoming introduced, imported wolves perfectly. Noxious predator does too.

 

[PJGunner]

" And if you'd ever like to go see some of the finest habitat in the Southwestern United States for Elk and game go visit the Apache Indian Reservation at White Mountain. There are more Elk there per acre then anywhere in the United States. Have a look around and you'll see what great habitat looks like, and no, they don't have Wolves, but the work very hard at proper timber management to the vegetation supply to support those animals in such high numbers. And here is another thing.... they don't let people in those areas to do whatever they want! It's patrolled by there game wardens to keep out people in there trophy areas."

I disagree. Since the introduction of the Mexican Gray wolf there have been wolves on the White Mounain reservation. Until I retired, I worked for the National Weather Service. One of my duites was to accomany the El Tech when he serviced our remote automated weather data gathering sites. We have five on the White Mountain Reservation. I won't say we saw wolves on every trip which we took once every three months but we did see them. I do most of my elk hunting in area 1 which abuts the reservation. Well, I do when I can draw a tag. The wife and I have seen wolves there as well and ddon't try and tell me that wolf coming up to the reservation border says to hiself, "That's the reservation. I can't go there."
As far as the "rez" being patrolled by wardens, usually when we had to do the sites one of the Indian Police was right their on our asses the whole time we were working. Definiely very unfriendly types. These days, the only contact I have with the "rez" is when I have to pass through to where I hunt elk.
Paul B.

 

[longrangehunter]

I respect everyone's opinion on the forum including yours on the wolves even though I don't agree with you. When you start your lecture about farm animals is when ive had enough! Look at how many animals are slaughtered everyday and what's the big deal if a farmer loses a few? How about you take a step back and think about it? I spent my first 18 years on a beef farm busting my butt to help my family raise cattle. It's hard work that pays little and cost more every year just to keep going. Losing one calf much less a cow is huge. Virginia now has a coyote problem and our farm along with other farms in the area have lost calves to predation. Thats hard earned money gone because some beautiful four legged predator was hungry! So do you think I care to hear you bleeding heart essay on the poor wolves??? Nope!!! Why don't you start a farm and try to make money at it. Wonder how much you would like it when a wolf has dinner on your paycheck?

First off I do respect every farmer that puts in more hours in two days then some do all week. I neglected to make sure I covered all the aspects taking place about these issues because this article was getting way to long. But Yes, I am fully aware of predation having worked on a cattle farm in Eastern Montana myself. But you're thinking I give a rats ass about a Wolf, Coyote or anything that becomes a problem you are sadly mistaken!

I have a friend sitting next to me telling me about her friends Dog being dragged off a trail right in front of them by a Coyote. As well as her little Jack Russell eaten by Coyotes. And I can tell you, I would rip its face off with my bear hands if I had to and that's know lie! I've been bitten be more German Shepherds then I care to mention, and jumped in to more then a few Dog fights. I have zero tolerance for anything that is out of balance and not where it belongs. Does that mean I should shoot every Shepherd on site?

This is a man made problem like almost everything else in this World. Do you think I was tracking a Wolf for more then four hours for nothing? But here's the thing: I DID NOT HAVE A WOLF HUNTING LICENSE! But that's not what came to my mind at that moment, I thought in my head " No harm, no foul"! That's what this post was all about, and not meant to be anything more then a short story. It's not about your financial loss, or someone else's. When I hunt, I hunt for my own reasons, and nothing else.

For me at that time it was not about your financial loss, you're in Virginia, and have a Coyote problem. My last post was in reference to "the feelings of any animal prior to becoming consumed". In a general sense, I don't see any difference. Nor is there any difference for a Store owner that has to deal with theft, whether someone else is stealing things or their own employees. It's a part of doing business. Plain and simple really in a general sense.

Whether a Wolf, a Coyote, a Owl, a Hawk, or any predator, and I'll through us as human in that picture as well. Some animal or someone is going to take advantage of any situation for their own benefit. My other point was about another issue taking place right under our own two feet with the respect to noxious weeds. Something else that man has brought in that doesn't belong in these environments. But like everything else, mankind has caused these things. Consider the Snakehead Fish that was let go by some Chinese dude that he let go as a cerimonial sacrifice for his family. What about the Asian Carp in the Mississippi River? I could go on and on where mankind has changed the natural balance of a given environment that would normally not exist today.

How about if I pose a real controversial question? How about the displacement of 800 million Native American Indians that once populated this entire North American continent? Do you really want to open up this can of worms? That was my point... to consider the impact mankind has had on everything that we do. Everything has a cause and effect.

Even this conversation... right?

 

[JD338]

lrh,

To each their own.

JD338

 

[longrangehunter]

Oh, I forgot something else, and why I even brought up the other post, the starving Elk I found! Due to lack of a proper food source, mainly grass forage, since Elk are grazers. And that it is not just the Wolf that has reduced Elk populations. I felt sorry for an elk that suffered a long and arduous death. Which is worse? Dying of starvation or being eaten by a predator. And that for that Elk, being eaten would have been far more humane then suffer for a month or more?

And when I say that, I mean "we" are predators too and will eat just about anything on the face of the this Earth. We're at the top of the food chain. It isn't any different. But that we have caused a growing crisis, in a lot of different ways and to actually step back and look at the whole picture. And that was my point I was trying to get across.

But that's just my take on life and I tend to look at the broader picture and see both sides of all most any issue.

 

[Woodycreek]

For me at that time it was not about your financial loss, you're in Virginia, and have a Coyote problem. My last post was in reference to "the feelings of any animal prior to becoming consumed". In a general sense, I don't see any difference. Nor is there any difference for a Store owner that has to deal with theft, whether someone else is stealing things or their own employees. It's a part of doing business. Plain and simple really in a general sense.

Why did I bring up farmers financial loss? Because you stated that "So why is it if a few cattle, in relative terms, get harmed or eaten a Headline?" It should be a headline every time it happens because a farmer has lost money to an animal that shouldn't be there in the first place! Feeling of an animal before its death? I don't care! It's an animal and feel no remorse or guilt for slaughtering farm animals or hunting and killing game. They are here for human consumption not for us to worry about "animal feelings".

Weeds had nothing to do with the lack of elk in the area of Idaho we hunted this past fall. It had everything to do with the fresh wolf sign that we found everyday!

How about if I pose a real controversial question? How about the displacement of 800 million Native American Indians that once populated this entire North American continent? Do you really want to open up this can of worms? That was my point... to consider the impact mankind has had on everything that we do.

And why is that controversial? That's just part of American history. Tribes were displacing and killing other tribes long before the white man came to North America. I didn't kick a tribe off my land and don't owe one for my land. If you feel guilt for "animal suffering" or the displacement of Indians, Global warming, or whatever else the media tells us we should feel bad about is your problem.

That was my point... to consider the impact mankind has had on everything that we do. Everything has a cause and effect.

Even this conversation... right?

You are right about this! It has caused me to speak up and tell you how more than a few us on here feel about your opinion of wolves, feelings, guilt, and who knows what else. That you are full of crap and go pound sand.

 

[longrangehunter]

Hey Woodycreek,

your inability to see nothing more then that out of this forum, speaks volumes that you are too small minded to see the big picture........ That all you were able to extrapolate from this entire conversation was "feelings, guilt and who knows what else" shows that you are incapable of an intelligent discussion about anything!

Ok, read this statement: Any species that wants nothing more than to survive is bound not be our terms, but its own. But, and here's the real take on that. If that species loses its source of food, in this case the Elk, then that species has zero chance of survival beyond that of being eaten by a Wolf that mankind introduced as a population control in Yellow Stone National Park. And yet we have allowed the widespread outbreak of noxious weeds throughout our entire Country.

BTW...... Your crude response just reaffirms your inept ability to rise to a higher level of consciousness!

 

[onesonek]

Great story. I too have passed on many animals, likely more than I shot, just because it was the one I searching.

 

[longrangehunter]

" I disagree. Since the introduction of the Mexican Gray wolf there have been wolves on the White Mounain reservation. Until I retired, I worked for the National Weather Service. One of my duites was to accomany the El Tech when he serviced our remote automated weather data gathering sites. We have five on the White Mountain Reservation. I won't say we saw wolves on every trip which we took once every three months but we did see them. I do most of my elk hunting in area 1 which abuts the reservation. Well, I do when I can draw a tag. The wife and I have seen wolves there as well and ddon't try and tell me that wolf coming up to the reservation border says to hiself, "That's the reservation. I can't go there."
As far as the "rez" being patrolled by wardens, usually when we had to do the sites one of the Indian Police was right their on our asses the whole time we were working. Definiely very unfriendly types. These days, the only contact I have with the "rez" is when I have to pass through to where I hunt elk.
Paul B.

Well PJ its been more the a decade since I've hunted there, but I wasn't aware of that. They had a very profitable and renewable resource for Trophy Elk hunting, Bear hunting, Fishing and Photography or at least they did ten years ago, and maybe still do to this day but I can't speak for them. I had hunted there for five years w/my brother, and there were Elk everywhere. I took notice of the work involved to have such an abundance of game animals and was very impressed.

Odd as this my seem, but they use those funds collected to manage their Land and Wildlife, and have lots of it. I'd like to place the importance on the Land aspect and not just the Wildlife. Yet our own State Governments don't seem to manage our lands as well as they do for Wildlife. But that's is just my observation..... what ever that worth?