Inconsistent concentricity

[thatguySHM]

I'm finding it hard to get consistent concentricity on some 22-250 AI ammo I am loading. Just looking for some tips and tricks I suppose as they're are a few new tricks I'm using with this set up.

Rifle is a savage 12 with a new X-Caliber 22-250 AI 40° chamber. Brass is Sig Brass which I've found is extremely consistent. I neck turned all brass new using a KM set up. After resizing with my standard Forster sizing die and loading a 69smk for fire forming with a Forster bench rest seating die my run out is typical for Forster dies 0.0005" or under.

After firing, I clean the newly formed brass and use a Redding Type-S neck die with a .248" bushing for .0015" neck tension without expander button. Then I clean pockets to get the carbon out, touch it on an inside neck chamfer and prime and powder. I'm running about 98-99% case fill. No crunching the RL23 powder. Using my Redding seating die to seat the long 75gr ELD-M is causing anywhere from 0-.004" runout without any pattern. I'll get a couple with 0 then will get max runout with the next one.

I'm new to Ackley rounds and I'm new to the Type-S sizer which isn't sizing all the way to shoulder. I'm getting about .175" of the neck sized which I'm not thrilled about but it is what it is.

I use Forster dies as much as I can, and am just wondering if there's any tricks to Redding products. I ordered a Lee pacesetter set of dies and will epoxy fit an eld bullet to the floating bullet stem in an attempt to eliminate the seating die as the issue. I guess the only other step would be to get set up to use one of my RCBS competition seaters for in line seating.

Any suggestions?

Thank you
SHM

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[jimbires]

have you checked neck run out on a fired and sized case BEFORE seating a bullet ? this will tell you if it's a sizing or seating problem .

another question I have . do you know what your expanded neck size is after firing ? if you're down sizing more than about .005 or .006 you might want to do it in two steps .

 

[thatguySHM]

After sizing, at the end of the neck, run out is less than a thousandth, but I haven't checked as many cases as I should have. I will look at more of them. Fired cases measure .255, I'm using a .248 bushing with final loaded round at .2495.

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[jimbires]

I forgot about this in my last post . with your sizing die installed in the press . when you put the bushing in the die , is the bushing stamped numbers facing up , or down . the bushing should be installed with the size numbers facing down . these numbers could be raised a little from being stamped . so when you push your brass up into the bushing , the bushing can tilt a little causing the neck to bend . I use the titanium bushings , and I still lube the neck lightly with graphite or mica . I chamfer inside and outside , just a touch , every time . there is very little taper in the bushing , compared to a standard die , so the case must not hang up . check a few more cases and let me know what you find .

 

[thatguySHM]

100% seating die. Every neck is straight as an arrow. I could barely get any wiggle off the indicator on the necks. Any way to make the seating process with a Redding die any better?

I installed the bushing numbers down and with the bushing adjusted a quarter turn off tight so it can self align.

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[jimbires]

with your brass checking perfect out of the sizing die , you might want to put the bushing in the die the way you had it. or check your run out after sizing your brass next time to be sure your not causing run out in this step . I'm thinking " if it's not broke don't fix it "

don't worry about the neck not being sized completely to the shoulder . this is donut area , and not sizing it is a good thing . you're not pushing the donut in .

is this the redding seating die with the sliding sleeve that helps align the case to bullet ?

make sure the seating die is clean , the alignment sleeve slides easy . nothing stuck to the stem where it fits to the bullet .
you are not using any expander ball or mandrel . I would try running a "VLD" type chamfer tool AFTER the sizing die . the vld tool will put a nice long slow taper inside the case neck . I would then use a bronze brush inside the case neck to be sure there is no burr in there . especially do this after the brass is annealed . I would also dip my bullet base in powder graphite before seating to help it glide in with out hanging up .a light coating is all you need . knock off the clumps of graphite that seem to stick to the bullet base ..
have you ever cut copper tubing with a tubing cutter and noticed how the cutter rolls the end of the tube in ? I'm wondering if the bushing is rolling the very end of the case mouth in a slight amount . that's my idea for the VLD chamfer after the sizing .

 

[thatguySHM]

It's their standard seating die. I did not order the sleeved version, it was special order in the places I looked.

After sizing I touch it with the VLD chamfer device, just enough to knock down any burrs.

With turned AI brass I'm not concerned with doughnuts but that makes sense that the die is set up that way, thank you for the knowledge!

I think I'll try the Lee sizing die and if that doesn't work MidSouth has the Rcbs competition seater and shellholder for a reasonable price and I'll be that route. I would get the VLD seating stem from redding but it costs more than half the RCBS and I can use that on other 22 caliber rounds.

I've torn it apart and cleaned everything twice now, I've checked to make sure the tip isn't contacting during seating and my ogive to base measurements are exactly 2.080" on each loaded round so I doubt that is the problem.

I'm going to contact Redding after the Lee dies show up also.

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[joelkdouglas]

SHM I have tried Lee seaters in a couple cartridges and it’s not my preferred. I haven’t noted very good concentricity using them.

The first thing I would recommend is to try an O Ring. That experiment will cost the least and sometimes I have outstanding results. The O Ring helps the die float a little so the die/case combination can align better.

Have you considered a Forster Competition Seater? They are less expensive than the Redding and very good. They have the sliding sleeve to support the case.

If trying to get a seater I first consider a Forster Competition, Redding Competition, and a Wilson seater. The Wilson also requires an arbor press.




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[jimbires]

It's their standard seating die. I did not order the sleeved version, it was special order in the places I looked.

After sizing I touch it with the VLD chamfer device, just enough to knock down any burrs.

With turned AI brass I'm not concerned with doughnuts but that makes sense that the die is set up that way, thank you for the knowledge!

I think I'll try the ***** Lee sizing die****** and if that doesn't work MidSouth has the Rcbs competition seater and shellholder for a reasonable price and I'll be that route. I would get the VLD seating stem from redding but it costs more than half the RCBS and I can use that on other 22 caliber rounds.

I've torn it apart and cleaned everything twice now, I've checked to make sure the tip isn't contacting during seating and my ogive to base measurements are exactly 2.080" on each loaded round so I doubt that is the problem.

I'm going to contact Redding after the Lee dies show up also.

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I think you meant Lee seating , since your sizing is perfect . I **** by this in your quote .


with the seating stem pushing on the ogive , I'd say you're ok there . you could try an O-ring as mentioned above . you could also try seating a little , lower the case and give it a half turn , seat a little lower the case give a half turn . to see if you can keep it straight .

 

[thatguySHM]

SHM I have tried Lee seaters in a couple cartridges and it’s not my preferred. I haven’t noted very good concentricity using them.

The first thing I would recommend is to try an O Ring. That experiment will cost the least and sometimes I have outstanding results. The O Ring helps the die float a little so the die/case combination can align better.

Have you considered a Forster Competition Seater? They are less expensive than the Redding and very good. They have the sliding sleeve to support the case.

If trying to get a seater I first consider a Forster Competition, Redding Competition, and a Wilson seater. The Wilson also requires an arbor press.




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An O ring won't work with a Co-Ax, there is plenty of wiggle to self align as is though.

Forster is my die brand of choice also, but they don't make an AI version of the 22-250 and the standard bench rest seater does not fit the blown out case of the AI. Forster currently is not taking orders for custom dies. Their site does say they will make a P-30 chamber die from fire formed brass so I am hoping that is the chamber sleeve and can order one and use my standard 22-250 die, I am contacting them about that.

I did find that the seating die may be improperly milled, as I can take the seating stem out of the die and drop a .243 bullet through it, but a .257 will not fit. That very well could be the cause.

I greatly appreciate all responses and help!

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[thatguySHM]

It's their standard seating die. I did not order the sleeved version, it was special order in the places I looked.

After sizing I touch it with the VLD chamfer device, just enough to knock down any burrs.

With turned AI brass I'm not concerned with doughnuts but that makes sense that the die is set up that way, thank you for the knowledge!

I think I'll try the ***** Lee sizing die****** and if that doesn't work MidSouth has the Rcbs competition seater and shellholder for a reasonable price and I'll be that route. I would get the VLD seating stem from redding but it costs more than half the RCBS and I can use that on other 22 caliber rounds.

I've torn it apart and cleaned everything twice now, I've checked to make sure the tip isn't contacting during seating and my ogive to base measurements are exactly 2.080" on each loaded round so I doubt that is the problem.

I'm going to contact Redding after the Lee dies show up also.

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I think you meant Lee seating , since your sizing is perfect . I **** by this in your quote .


with the seating stem pushing on the ogive , I'd say you're ok there . you could try an O-ring as mentioned above . you could also try seating a little , lower the case and give it a half turn , seat a little lower the case give a half turn . to see if you can keep it straight .

Thank you for the correction, I definitely meant seating die.

Standard seating protocol for me is to get the bullet to just slightly seat and then I raise the handle to take pressure off of the bullet, allow to recenter and seat to final OAL. I did try to rotate 90 and it did not change run out consistently.

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[jimbires]

I've never had any better results doing the twist while seating bullets either , but thought I'd mention it . I've read where guys claim it works . please let us know what you find out , I'm always ready to learn something . thanks Jim

 

[joelkdouglas]

SHM I have tried Lee seaters in a couple cartridges and it’s not my preferred. I haven’t noted very good concentricity using them.

The first thing I would recommend is to try an O Ring. That experiment will cost the least and sometimes I have outstanding results. The O Ring helps the die float a little so the die/case combination can align better.

Have you considered a Forster Competition Seater? They are less expensive than the Redding and very good. They have the sliding sleeve to support the case.

If trying to get a seater I first consider a Forster Competition, Redding Competition, and a Wilson seater. The Wilson also requires an arbor press.




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An O ring won't work with a Co-Ax, there is plenty of wiggle to self align as is though.

Forster is my die brand of choice also, but they don't make an AI version of the 22-250 and the standard bench rest seater does not fit the blown out case of the AI. Forster currently is not taking orders for custom dies. Their site does say they will make a P-30 chamber die from fire formed brass so I am hoping that is the chamber sleeve and can order one and use my standard 22-250 die, I am contacting them about that.

I did find that the seating die may be improperly milled, as I can take the seating stem out of the die and drop a .243 bullet through it, but a .257 will not fit. That very well could be the cause.

I greatly appreciate all responses and help!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Gotcha, yep the O Ring is a no go with the Co Ax.

Can you use a normal 223 seater for the AI version?

If you are out of options I’ve heard good things about Whidden custom dies.


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[thatguySHM]

SHM I have tried Lee seaters in a couple cartridges and it’s not my preferred. I haven’t noted very good concentricity using them.

The first thing I would recommend is to try an O Ring. That experiment will cost the least and sometimes I have outstanding results. The O Ring helps the die float a little so the die/case combination can align better.

Have you considered a Forster Competition Seater? They are less expensive than the Redding and very good. They have the sliding sleeve to support the case.

If trying to get a seater I first consider a Forster Competition, Redding Competition, and a Wilson seater. The Wilson also requires an arbor press.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

An O ring won't work with a Co-Ax, there is plenty of wiggle to self align as is though.

Forster is my die brand of choice also, but they don't make an AI version of the 22-250 and the standard bench rest seater does not fit the blown out case of the AI. Forster currently is not taking orders for custom dies. Their site does say they will make a P-30 chamber die from fire formed brass so I am hoping that is the chamber sleeve and can order one and use my standard 22-250 die, I am contacting them about that.

I did find that the seating die may be improperly milled, as I can take the seating stem out of the die and drop a .243 bullet through it, but a .257 will not fit. That very well could be the cause.

I greatly appreciate all responses and help!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Gotcha, yep the O Ring is a no go with the Co Ax.

Can you use a normal 223 seater for the AI version?

If you are out of options I’ve heard good things about Whidden custom dies.


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22-250 Ackley won't fit in the benchrest die from Forster as they are chamber specific. I am going to check the rcbs back up that I have, forgot I even had that die.

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[thatguySHM]

I guess I need to get over it. Went out and tested some loads at 41.5, 41.7 and 41.9 at 300 yards. 41.5 went into .58" three shot. I had loaded up 41.3 but the first round didn't register on the mag speed since I didn't plug the bayo in all the way, so I took one from my 3 round group to recheck velocity and didn't want to judge a 2 shot group, so I fired 10 fire forming rounds at 300.

41.5 and 41.7 on the same sheet, 41.9 and the 69gr smk load on the other.

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[jimbires]

that looks real good . I used to worry about run out a lot more than I do now . I think if they are kept under .004 or .005 you'll never notice

 

[ElmerThud]

SHM I have tried Lee seaters in a couple cartridges and it’s not my preferred. I haven’t noted very good concentricity using them.

The first thing I would recommend is to try an O Ring. That experiment will cost the least and sometimes I have outstanding results. The O Ring helps the die float a little so the die/case combination can align better.

Have you considered a Forster Competition Seater? They are less expensive than the Redding and very good. They have the sliding sleeve to support the case.

If trying to get a seater I first consider a Forster Competition, Redding Competition, and a Wilson seater. The Wilson also requires an arbor press.
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I’m a big fan of using an ‘O’ ring under the F/L die lock nut. Set up right it’s brilliant for establishing low run out between case neck & body & that’s a great start helping getting the bullet seated straight.
A Wilson seating die & arbor press does the rest.

 

[cloverleaf]

"I guess I need to get over it. Went out and tested some loads at 41.5, 41.7 and 41.9 at 300 yards. 41.5 went into .58" three shot" Uh....did I read that right... at 300 yards... I don't think I could ever get over that!! CL

 

[thatguySHM]

"I guess I need to get over it. Went out and tested some loads at 41.5, 41.7 and 41.9 at 300 yards. 41.5 went into .58" three shot" Uh....did I read that right... at 300 yards... I don't think I could ever get over that!! CL

Haha yeah. I'm done with checking run out on these rounds . I am loading a few more and going to check at 450 yards and see what happens. I still haven't checked SD/ES, or shot a 100 yard group with this load, so I'll see what five does at 100 with the mag speed attached and then play around.

I was pleasantly surprised when I went down and saw that group, that's for sure. And RL23 is great for temp sensitivity so that's another big plus in Maine winters.

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[kraky1]

I will throw out what I believe to be the culprit in your seating process...at least a good chance. I have a feeling that the seating stem in your die is not a match to that profile of that bullet. I would check very closely and see if the tip of the bullet is bottoming in the seating stem before the cup is contacting the outside of the bullet. If that is what is happening there is no seating die in the world that will keep you from getting random goofy run out. I have had this happen in several different calibers with different brands of dies the bottom line is when you go to a really Sleek profile bullet sometimes the push from the seating die is right at the tip of the bullet and that will cause it to go off- line pretty easily.