Load Development Sanity Check

[kraky1]

I wasn't sure what caused it. I bought Hornady dies to reload my buddys stuff mainly because I like their seater and I like the elliptical expander. The huge problem I had was I could barely get bullets to seat after sizing on the Hornady dies. The expander seem to be the right size so I couldn't figure out what was going on and I ended up buying a body Die and Lee collet dies. Now everything seats the way it should. Going back to the Hornady dies I couldn't figure out if there was a problem with the die or if the brass was so brittle and hard that it was springing back after sizing. I know the brass was very hard because I correct excessive run-out using a tru tool and it was very hard to move the necks on that brass. All I can say is the WSM case is a fine idea but the brass out there sure seems to suck!

 

[bob_dobalina]

Can someone help me out with interpreting my chrono results?

And maybe give me some idea where I am at for pressure - maybe with Quickload?

2.8" COAL, 180gr ttsx, RL17 powder, 24" 1-11 twist barrel.

64.5 was shooting 1/2" groups at 100 yds and kind of opened up at 200 yds.

64.5 - 3+" group
1. 2962
2. 2962 (DUP)
3. 2969
4. 2982
5. 2976

65 grains grouped well at 200 yds, but had more erratic velocities.

65 - 1.3" group
1. 3009
2. 2962
3. 2936
4. 2996
5. 2976

I'm tempted to run with 65 but am concerned with the erratic velocities is a sign of pressure? I have read RL17 doesn't show normal pressure signs. I shot the 65 group first. I let the barrel get completely cold and ran a little solvent through it but I half think the barnes just copper foul so bad I lose accuracy after about 10 shots.

 

[kraky1]

In my experience it's real likely you needed the first three shots to get your Barrel back to normal seasoning after putting solvent in there..... I would tell you that doing that pretty much invalidated that group.....Imho!
Fwiw... a few months back and I got a Lyman borecam.... I'm getting a quite a lesson on Barrel cleaning and think I was overdoing it and overthinking it for many many years....and I am amazed what cleanliness comes in a barrel after two swipes of a bore snake! I also think these copper reducing powders might actually work.
I have lots more to learn but the $200 I invested has been more useful than I thought.

 

[jimbires]

the 300WSM is rated at 63817 PSI .
64.5 grain is 71317 PSI
65.0 grain is 73203 PSI

according to quickload your hot on these , going by the standard settings . water capacity could make a big difference in the pressure a load produces . here is some info .

Cartridge : .300 WSM (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 180, Barnes 'TTSX'BT 30372
Useable Case Capaci: 67.064 grain H2O = 4.354 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 80 52.00 2559 2617 37745 9061 99.0 1.412
-18.0 82 53.30 2617 2738 40277 9237 99.5 1.378
-16.0 84 54.60 2675 2861 42988 9394 99.8 1.344
-14.0 86 55.90 2733 2985 45894 9530 100.0 1.311
-12.0 88 57.20 2790 3110 48991 9643 100.0 1.279
-10.0 90 58.50 2846 3237 52348 9749 100.0 1.248
-08.0 92 59.80 2901 3364 55933 9851 100.0 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
-06.0 94 61.10 2956 3493 59787 9950 100.0 1.175 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 96 62.40 3011 3623 63934 10045 100.0 1.141 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 98 63.70 3065 3755 68397 10138 100.0 1.108 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 100 65.00 3119 3888 73203 10226 100.0 1.076 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 102 66.30 3172 4022 78403 10311 100.0 1.046 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 104 67.60 3226 4158 83974 10392 100.0 1.017 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 106 68.90 3279 4296 89964 10468 100.0 0.988 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 108 70.20 3332 4436 96429 10541 100.0 0.961 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 110 71.50 3384 4578 103420 10609 100.0 0.935 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 65.00 3208 4114 88430 9876 100.0 1.006 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 65.00 2981 3552 59077 10736 99.9 1.172 ! Near Maximum !



about 62.4 grain is a max load . giving 63934 PSI

Cartridge : .300 WSM (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 180, Barnes 'TTSX'BT 30372
Useable Case Capaci: 67.064 grain H2O = 4.354 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 77 49.92 2465 2429 34032 8738 98.0 1.469
-18.0 79 51.17 2521 2541 36211 8937 98.7 1.435
-16.0 81 52.42 2578 2656 38537 9119 99.2 1.401
-14.0 83 53.66 2634 2772 41018 9283 99.6 1.368
-12.0 85 54.91 2689 2890 43668 9429 99.8 1.336
-10.0 87 56.16 2744 3010 46499 9554 100.0 1.305
-08.0 89 57.41 2799 3130 49526 9660 100.0 1.274
-06.0 90 58.66 2852 3252 52765 9761 100.0 1.241
-04.0 92 59.90 2906 3375 56232 9859 100.0 1.207 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 94 61.15 2959 3498 59948 9954 100.0 1.173 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 96 62.40 3011 3623 63934 10045 100.0 1.141 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 98 63.65 3063 3750 68214 10134 100.0 1.109 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 100 64.90 3115 3877 72813 10219 100.0 1.079 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 102 66.14 3166 4006 77760 10301 100.0 1.050 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 104 67.39 3217 4137 83056 10379 100.0 1.021 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 106 68.64 3268 4269 88729 10453 100.0 0.994 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 96 62.40 3106 3857 77368 9685 100.0 1.063 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 96 62.40 2864 3277 51817 10497 99.5 1.244

 

[bob_dobalina]

jimbires thansk for doing that. I hope I did this right but I came up with 80.4 grains water, does that help you adjust Quickload? Let me know if you need more info, thanks.

 

[jimbires]

Bob , you need to take a piece of fired brass , neck size it only and fire it again . this will get the brass fully expanded or close to it . I'll use 5 pieces of brass and neck size only until they get tight in the chamber . then do NOT resize the brass . do not remove the primer . weigh it empty , then weigh it filled to the top with water . I use a paper towel to touch the water buble to get it flat with the case brass . the difference in these two weights will be your water capacity .


edit to add ;
to neck size , just raise your full length die about 1/2 turn . this will raise the die about 0.035 " and should not contact the brass shoulder

 

[bob_dobalina]

Bob , you need to take a piece of fired brass , neck size it only and fire it again . this will get the brass fully expanded or close to it . I'll use 5 pieces of brass and neck size only until they get tight in the chamber . then do NOT resize the brass . do not remove the primer . weigh it empty , then weigh it filled to the top with water . I use a paper towel to touch the water buble to get it flat with the case brass . the difference in these two weights will be your water capacity .


edit to add ;
to neck size , just raise your full length die about 1/2 turn . this will raise the die about 0.035 " and should not contact the brass shoulder

Ok, I almost had it right. I took a resized brass, trimmed to 2.090" which I trim all my brass to, and primed it with a fired primer. Then I weighed before and after adding water with a tiny bit of dish soap, careful to get a flat meniscus (I did some googling). Sounds like I pretty much had it minus the neck resizing. So I will fire, neck-resize (and trim?), fire, then measure.

 

[SJB358]

You are probably close enough Bob. The BA speed is important as well. Almost as much as the H20 capacity.

 

[bob_dobalina]

Here's what I don't get - I'm getting the velocities with 64.5 grains that according to your Quickload data I should be getting with 61.15 grains. So does that tell me the velocity is more important than the grains? What I mean is, since I'm getting around the velocities you list at 61.15 grains, am I getting the pressures you list at 61.15 grains as well (59948), even though I am using 64.5 grains?

Barnes list max grains/velocities at 66/3084 (barnes), Alliant 66/3082, and Nosler lists max at 64/3092 with similar equipment.

 

[SJB358]

That's how I roll typically. I monitor PSI signs through speed while keeping in mind barrel length and such. RL powders (and all of the others) can and will vary a bunch with different lots. No big deal to get 2950-3000 with a 180 in a WSM.

 

[bob_dobalina]

Thanks. Man I've learned a lot trying to develop this load. Not much of this data was out there when I got started.

 

[Dwh7271]

Bob,
Speed increase w the same powder, primer, case and bullet equals pressure increase.
Doesn't really matter on the grains of powder (I know, heresy!) and what a book or program says. You have to match it to what you are seeing. Only way I'm comfortable doing that is, as Scotty mentioned, adjusting QL to what your numbers are.
You need case capacity, chrono speeds(5 works, 10 is better), I like temperature, and one batch of powder. (You change batches it may be close but needs adjusted, especially if the load is toward the upper end) Then as Scotty mentioned, set your temp, avg speeds and adjust the Ba in QL.
If it doesn't fit your needs, change powder. Start over w a new powder. :grin:
You hit a point of diminishing returns with loads and powder. Easy to see,just look at the fps gains per 1/10 gr of powder as you near max. The gains will slim down. You can add more powder but it's just not going to give a big jump in speed. It's becoming inefficient.
For powders, look at percentage burn on the QL run also. Should be close to 100% or near with a good load. You know you're getting all it has at that point. Stuff more in, many times the burn percentage drops.
Granted, a lot of generalities here.
Excuse the ramble!

 

[bob_dobalina]

Dwh7271, not a ramble at all thanks for the info. Is it common to "plateau" before achieving book max velocity with very similar equipment and matching components? And what is BA Speed?

 

[jimbires]

adjusting the BA speed is something I don't do . maybe I can learn something here . quickload does a lot . this is where experience comes in . like I said the other day , I won't question these guys experience .


the case water capacity listed in quickload for the 300 wsm is 81.3 gr

the reason I'm asking for this is , my 338 lapua has a case capacity of 116 grains . quickload has it listed at 108 . 8 grains is major .

 

[Dwh7271]

Ba is the burn rate for the powder.
Jim, by pushing the button just to the left of the powder select drop down you can change the Ba. Don't worry, changing it this way isn't permanent, it'll change back when you change cartridges or powders. Modify it by the box at the bottom of that section where the specific loading entry goes. Once you have the temp, capacity and everything else where you want it, change the Ba until it matches what your average is on speed. Should have everything pretty close at that point.
Hope that helps.
By the way Jim, yours was a classy reply. Thanks!

 

[Dwh7271]

s it common to "plateau" before achieving book max velocity with very similar equipment and matching components? And what is BA Speed?

Shoot, forgot to try to answer the first part.
Depends on the rifle, chamber, barrel, throat, tight neck or not, freebore, powder batch, loading etc. Max is a concept I technically agree with (and abide by) but in practicality don't. Doesn't mean I exceed it though. There are rifles that are going to run into pressure signs below what is shown as max and others that will tolerate higher loadings. Depends on the rifle etc. what one rifle determines as a max before it starts showing signs may be different than another's. A lot of the Ackleys don't show pressure until above "max" for example.
I've been studying reports and studies a little of micro cracks and such among rifles subjected to consistent high pressure loadings. Some last, some don't but that's not a lottery ticket I'm willing to play personally. :grin: I have no issue with my rifles and taking them to a certain point but don't want to encourage anyone, even unintentionally, to exceed listed max.
There are a lot of folks on this site better qualified than I am to take you further down the rabbit hole. :lol:
Hope that's of some help.

 

[kraky1]

Maximum pressure isnt reached in most cases until the bullet is slightly down the barrel so if your gun has any free bore to it that has to count as part of your "burn chamber". Wby, tikka, and some rem rifles have alot of freebore. My method is to adjust temp if it was cold....then I might add some "case capacity" if i know the gun has freebore or I'm using win brass....then if I'm not getting close I change BA last. Ymmv!