Long, dark, cold...and overthinking guns. Again.

[Vince]

Hodgeman,

I'm going to attempt this again but first let me bid you good morning.

.338 Win Mag is what I, and many others, think of when a rifle for Alaska must be chosen. Other bullet luanchers work but none has the mythical aura that the Win Mag has. It's America's "Big Gun".

We don't have dangerous game, brown bears and ol' griz excepted, but we do have moose and elk in the States. Being Americans we've always thought, collectively, "If a little is good a lot is more betterer."

The 338-06 has some positives. Components are easy to find or assemble. 30-06 cases are everywhere and .338 bullets are fairly common too. It's drawback, in my opinion, is range. It's a little smaller diameter than the Whelen but to me focusing on diameter is like splitting hairs. As for recoil I have no opinion as I've not luanched a 338-06 yet.

The Whelen, as my friend named his, "Thumper". I asked him why Thumper and he replied, "Because it thumps stuff dead."

Easy to use a 30-06 case but finding bullets can be a pain in the rear. Powder is not an issue as it uses common powders, as does the above mentioned 338-06. Pills for this one is the only real issue. It packs a wallop and I like everything about it but like the 338-06 the range is a little limited. I consider both to be 300 Yard rifles.

Now we come to my favorite All Around North American cartridge. Heavy for Wyoming antelope but works well on moose. Given our penchant to often be experts without proper education I'm suprised more of these aren't sold. It really is above what the once a year deer hunter that only shoots one week before deer season can handle.

Factory ammo is as common as dirt anywhere elk are hunted. The same can't be said about the other two rounds. While many say the 30-06 is enough for bears I'm inclined to want more if I'm capable of putting the bullets where they need to go.

Range and availability are the limiting factors of the previous two rounds. The Win Mag tends to extend that a little bit. I consider the Win Mag to be a 500 to 600 Yard rifle with 600 Yards being the upper end of how far I'd want to use it. I've shot mine that far at the range but have yet kill anything that far out there with mine.

Will Follow Up Later With More

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[IdahoCTD]

The 375JRS is one of the better improved versions for easy. It's simply a 8mm Rem. Mag necked up to 375. It gives up a little bit of capacity to a 375AI but not a ton. The improved versions are significantly faster than a standard 375 H&H. Those same 250 Sierra's would run 2900-2950 with R-15 in my standard 375 H&H. Any other powder was in the 2800fps range.

Interesting... Isn't the 8mm Rem mag pretty much just a blown out and necked down .375 H&H case?

I see the advantage, having a little more case capacity, and perhaps less case stretch?

Ol' Sundra (JRS) did a LOT of work with various cases.

Guy

It is a blown out and necked down version of the 375 H&H but it's only a 25 degree shoulder versus a 40 degree for the 375AI or a 35 degree for a 358STA based case. It also has more taper than the other two. It doesn't amount to a bunch of additional capacity but it's about 3-4 more grains. Any of the above have less case stretch by a good deal over a standard 375 H&H with just under a 15 degree shoulder. the JRS gets really close to the same velocity of the others with a lot less work. Of course a person could always go to a 375RUM with a bunch more recoil and very little velocity gain with the lighter bullets

He also did a pretty maxed effort 7mm on a 280 Rem case called the 7JRS.

 

[Vince]

OK, it's later.

To continue where I left off. .......

I was recently talking with a friend who lived in Alaska about this very topic. He is of the opinion that the 30-06 is all one needs for Alaska. I asked about bears and his response was, "Bear Spray".

Interesting response from my perspective given that I've had to fight one too many men that were pretty much immune to the human version of the stuff. The gentleman in question now lives in D.C. and when he retires he says Arizona and Alaska are on his short list for places to live. He took his brown bear with a .300 Win Mag and it's a great Arizona elk cartridge.

For me it depends on the game and range one is likely to shoot. Out to 250 Yards I'd use the 30-06 or one of it's variants. From bad breath distance to 600 Yards I'm inclined to reach for the .338 Win Mag. Beyond 600 I'd be looking for something flatter shooting.

The .338 has taught me proper mechanics of shooting. I have to have the fundamentals down pat otherwise my target shows it. It packs enough of a wallop that your weaknesses as a shooter are magnified.

There are many other cartridges that will work as well but for my use, given that I limit myself to 600 Yards on game, the Win Mag is at the upper end of what I care to shoot on a regular basis, and that I find it flat shooting enough for my needs with enough energy to get the job done I have selected it as my one gun for North America if I could only have one.

The .375, and it's kin, is what I think of when I think of Africa. If Africa is in your plans and you only have one gun it would be the .375 Ruger. The H&H will get it done but if I'm using the minimum caliber I want a little oomph in reserve for Dugga Boy.

Now bear in mind I've not hunted Africa but base my opinions on what some knowledgeable people have said over years of conversations. If I was going to Africa for plains game the .338 Win Mag would be my choice. It has also taken cape buffalo as a friend used it to take one. Ideal? No, not by a long shot, but it got the job done. I'd be inclined to take two rifles. The .338 and a .458. If only one rifle for Africa I'd grab the .375 Ruger and not look back but I'd rather take two.

Vince



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[Thankful Otter]

Vince,

you comment "while many say the 30-06 is enough for bears" --I am one of them. On another forum it was said that the 348 that I was going to get was to small for the white and brown bear. I used a 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet for several years and for everything I hunted, from wolf to bear. I still have it and would not hesitate to use it again.

The reason I recommended the 375 H & H to Hodgeman is because of his statement that the 416 was a little too much, leading me to believe that he is recoil sensitive and I feel the 338 hits a little harder than the 375, at least that was my impression. The 340 weatherby is too much for me, but my husband loves that gun and feels it is a better choice than the 338 win ( just between those two )

as an aside Vince and a question I ask before, who shoots big game at 600 yards. LOL just joking with you, as you already explained that it is the terrain not the animal.

I wonder what country your friend who hunted Africa was hunting, as when I was considering a trip to Africa, Aleena told me that the 375 is the minimum legal caliber for the big five, but I have no doubt a 338 win would work. Didnt some guy named Bell shoot a ton of elephants with a 6.5 or something like that, I dont remember exactly

I will disappear now, as I am sure you fellows hate it when I have more than a few minutes of computer time available.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Vince and Cheyenne and others- that's a lot of good information.

I've gotta admit, I rarely worry over bears, bad bear encounters are close enough that average hunting rifle ballistics suffice when he's chewing the muzzle - I'm more interested in performance on moose. The .300 is fine for that of course but variety is the spice of life.

I'm also interested in the newer mono-metal bullets and it seems under expansion is the common failure theme there so a bigger hole maker might not be such a bad idea. Particularly in my new area- little cover and the ranges are tending toward long. That would rule out very interesting things like the 45-70, .358, .348, etc. I'm not much of a long range shooter- probably 400 or so represents the longest poke I'd be comfortable with. Even the 338-06 and Whelen are getting serious drop out there.

I've got a few issues with my neck- I've never been particularly recoil sensitive- but the .416 was my upper limit and likely a little over.

 

[Vince]

Cheyenne,

Don't disappear. I for one don't hate it when you have computer time.

I found that I didn't like the finickiness of the .300 Win Mag when working up loads for two rifles and the recoil sensation was more offensive to me than the .338 Win Mag. Your, and others, mileage may vary.

I look at things largely based on the terrain I'm familiar with as that's what I can best relate to. As for the .338 taking a cape in Africa, all I know is a dear friend who has hunted Africa nine times used one. I don't know if it was because he was hunting cape that day but I suspect not but that a situation arose that he needed to shoot and that was what he had at hand.

I've never been a big fan of the 30-06 given that I think it runs out of oomph too soon but Jack O'Connor favored the .270 here. He did say however, "Anything the .270 can do the 30-06 can do a little better." He just didn't say that too loud.

Please don't disappear as I like the exchange of information and free flowing ideas.

Vince

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[Thebear_78]

The extra velocity and smudge of BC you get with the 338 win mag over the whelen is less than you would think. For intents and purposes they are interchangeable. A good 200gr bullet in your 300 wsm will work as well or better than either.

I don't have any beef with the 338 win, if you want one that's great. I just see a lot less gain when comparing it to other medium bored. Step up to a 338 rum/edge and your talking real change.

My opinion is you either need to step up velocity 400+ fps or diameter over .075" to make a noticeable difference. Anything less is just academic or personal taste.

I think your covered with cartridge choice. Make your decision based off the rifle platform and get whatever cartridge you like.

 

[Thebear_78]

Hodgeman- Everything you say keeps screaming 300wsm to me [emoji57]

I had a Kimber montana in 325 wsm stopped with a 1.75-6 leupold that would fit that bill nicely! For some reason the shot action montanas feel better to me than the long action.

 

[Thankful Otter]

Hodgeman

Ask Scotty how well the 250 grain Woodleigh works in the 348, it is a great combination. However, it is not a long range combo, so that alone may disqualify it from your short list

Vince and others here have given you very good advise, best of luck with whatever you decide to buy

 

[DrMike]

Cheyenne's comments are pertinent and worthy of serious consideration. Bullet placement is of far greater importance than frontal area, mass and/or velocity. A bad hit with a high-stepping bullet is still a bad hit. A bullet launched from a smaller cartridge and passing through the boiler is sufficient to kill an animal that is not alarmed and that is not spoiling for a fight. To be sure, if tangling with an ill-tempered bruin that is spoiling for a fight, more is better--if the shooter can place the shot while under duress.

One reason people who have never hunted the north think they must bring more rifle is that they are often trying to compensate for poor shot placement. Those who live with the great bears quickly learn to take a good shot or else be prepared to pay a horrendous price for their inattention.

As an aside, the .356 and/or the .358 is more than adequate to down a mountain grizzly. Facing a big coastal brownie, it would be better than a stick in the eye. For my part, I'm uncomfortable taking a long shot on a bear. I hate going into the bush to find a wounded bruin.

 

[truck driver]

Cheyenne's comments are pertinent and worthy of serious consideration. Bullet placement is of far greater importance than frontal area, mass and/or velocity. A bad hit with a high-stepping bullet is still a bad hit. A bullet launched from a smaller cartridge and passing through the boiler is sufficient to kill an animal that is not alarmed and that is not spoiling for a fight. To be sure, if tangling with an ill-tempered bruin that is spoiling for a fight, more is better--if the shooter can place the shot while under duress.

One reason people who have never hunted the north think they must bring more rifle is that they are often trying to compensate for poor shot placement. Those who live with the great bears quickly learn to take a good shot or else be prepared to pay a horrendous price for their inattention.

As an aside, the .356 and/or the .358 is more than adequate to down a mountain grizzly. Facing a big coastal brownie, it would be better than a stick in the eye. For my part, I'm uncomfortable taking a long shot on a bear. I hate going into the bush to find a wounded bruin.

+++++ what DrMike has said here. I have tried 3 times to post a message in response and deleted them all because they sounded like rants. A good medium bore in a standard cartridge is all you need if you are willing to learn what it will do and stop worrying about what it won't do on paper. :mrgreen:

 

[Guy Miner]

I will disappear now, as I am sure you fellows hate it when I have more than a few minutes of computer time available.

Actually, I very much appreciate hearing from you, as you've likely got more real-world, northland hunting experience on big game than most of us. Certainly more than me!

Why do I own a .375? Because I like 'em.

I have absolutely no practical need for more than the .30-06 for big game, and I do love the good old .30-06. It's NOT a 250 yard rifle, but rather a real-live 400 yard cartridge, absolutely no problem hitting and killing at that range. We macho men rifle nuts tend to over-estimate the amount of cartridge we need to kill things real dead. The old '06 has been doing just fine in that department for over 100 years, and is likely all the gun most of us need.

Thanks for contributing your well reasoned words to the discussion! Your words are backed by experience.

Regards, Guy

 

[Thankful Otter]

Dr Mike is spot on, Dr Mike has far more experience and knowledge than I, but I learned early on not to take a bad shot at any animal but definitely not a bear. Dr mike, makes a second point i would also like to elaborate on a bit. The Coastal Brownie is on average much larger than the mountain Grizzly and nine times out of ten they are in terrain that does not give one a lot of time to think about what you must do or should do. Although he did not say so, he inferred that a larger bore gun might be in order when hunting a coastal brownie, which is exactly why i did not sell the 45/70, because he is correct.

I got the feeling that Hodgeman was looking more for a moose gun however, so once again let me suggest the Model 71, 348 with a 250 gr woodleigh bullet. LOL ( sorry could not resist )

 

[Thebear_78]

Getting within 30-40 yards of 10' 1400 pound monsters makes even the largest guns feel small. I remember staring down a 9' brown bear over the sights of my 375 RUM at 15 yards and thinking " I wish I had my 458 lott with me".

The only other time I had really wished I had something bigger was staring down an angry cow moose while predator hunting and only had a 17 hmr. Luckily I got out of that deal with only some fast talking [emoji6]! Last time I ever left my 44 in the truck, even if it is piling my pants down! I usually carry in a chest holster now so no more problems.



Here is a good example. My buddy Phil shot this 1k pound monster last spring with a 300 RSAUM.

 

[DrMike]

A most respectable bruin, Bear. That'll do. I'm comfortable with mountain grizzlies when I am stalking them. When one of them puts the rush on me (as they have on a couple of occasions) I inevitably wish I was carrying something larger (makes no difference what it is that I am carrying). Still, knowing that standing my ground and aiming carefully and quickly will likely work in my favour. Our senses are supposed to be heightened when in the vicinity of grizzlies. Now, moose at six meters, that gets my attention every time; they always have the right-of-way. :shock:

 

[SJB358]

Great post, I'd not feel to bad carrying my Whelen with 250 PTs in just about any country. If I get to Alaska to hunt big Bears, I'm taking my 338 Alaskan. I will probably tote my 35 Newton along as well.

If you want something different, the 35 Newton is easy to make and runs real well from short barrels. I'm pretty middle bore heavy but they do work well out to normal hunting ranges and put a lot of bullet on target as well.

 

[Vince]

Great post, I'd not feel to bad carrying my Whelen with 250 PTs in just about any country. If I get to Alaska to hunt big Bears, I'm taking my 338 Alaskan. I will probably tote my 35 Newton along as well.

If you want something different, the 35 Newton is easy to make and runs real well from short barrels. I'm pretty middle bore heavy but they do work well out to normal hunting ranges and put a lot of bullet on target as well.

Are you referring to the Model 70, .338 Win Mag, Alaskan or the 338-06 modified?

Vince

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[Guy Miner]

Thebear_78 - that's a mighty fine looking bear your buddy Phil shot! Congrats!

Never hunted grizzly or the huge Alaskan brown bears. Sure do bump into them a LOT up in Alaska when I'm fishing for silver salmon though. Yeah, they're big... Real big. And absolutely at the top of their food chain.

I don't know that I'll ever hunt them with anything but a camera.

Guy

 

[wildgene]

I do like my 9.3X64 Brenneke; it is a hammer. However, a .375 (either H&H or Ruger) would work equally well. The mid-bores are enough for most of your hunting, and they give plenty of comfort should you encounter an ill-tempered bruin. Still, I do like my 9.3X64. :grin:

...still waiting on Dr. Mike to do some testing on the 250gr. Woodleighs :mrgreen: out of the .325 WSM, but w/ a SD of 0.341 they ought to punch a hole thru sumpthing, & I wouldn't feel totally undergunned in bear country, should be pretty good moose medicine. W/ 220gr. Sierras one of these would probably still be very capable of 300-400yds. for caribou...

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... 34&tid=015

 

[DrMike]

I'll get around to testing such bullets one day, Gene. For the time being, I feel perfectly comfortable slinging 200 grain Partitions out of the 325 WSM. It has accounted for multiple elk and moose, most being one shot kills. I haven't recovered a bullet yet.