Model 70 Safety Problem

[grry10]

The problem......Post 64 Model 70 (Push Feed).

I cock the bolt.
I move the lever to safe.
I pull the trigger.
Gun does not fire but I hear a light 'click'.
I move the lever off safe and the gun immediately fires without me pulling the trigger.

If I take the bolt out of my model 670 Winchester and place it in my model 70, the safety and trigger work fine. Any ideas of what I'm dealing with?

 

[ShadeTree]

I'm pretty familiar with that system. I'm leaving right now for a job believe it or not in this Covid lock down, and wont be back until late this evening. If no one else answers your question before, I should be able to help you when I get back.

 

[ShadeTree]

Grry10, thought about this when I was on the road yesterday. With the M70 there's really only 1 way this could be happening. Shouldn't be major to fix, but before we get into what's going on, I gotta ask, was this worked on before to your knowledge, to maybe provide smoother safety operation??

 

[grry10]

The only work that was ever done on this rifle was that Timney installed a trigger in it. I'm not sure if they worked on the safety or not.

 

[ShadeTree]

Hmmm. Not familiar with the set up on a M70 Timney replacement, not sure if they use their own sear or not. So that could be exasperating the problem.

Regardless, the issue is bound to be the rear face of the firing pin notch that sits against the safety. It is allowing the firing pin to sit too far forward when on safe. A simple firing pin replacement should fix it. Did it wear to that point, or was altered, don't know?

What is happening is your trigger and sear are holding the firing pin back initially, not the safety as intended. Therefore when on safe, the firing pin is fully engaged putting pressure on the sear. The click you hear is the sear dropping past the trigger. At that point the trigger is disengaged, but the firing pin has moved forward slightly against the back of the safety. The trigger is completely out of the loop at that point. The safety is now your trigger. Flip it forward and it goes off.


When skimming over your post yesterday I just looked at what you said was happening, and did not catch that you put in the bolt out of a 670, and it works fine. That fact farther indicates what I determined has to be happening.

If you're comfortable stripping the bolt, keep all parts separate of course, but put the firing pin only out of the M670 bolt, into the M70 bolt and test it for function. I would be surprised if you came back on here and said it's doing the same thing. If so, we will look at something else.

If you are unfamiliar with stripping the bolt, but would be comfortable in doing so, I can walk you through it. Not difficult really on a M70.

 

[ShadeTree]

P.S. That has to be what is happening, the firing pin is engaging the sear before it is engaging the safety. The M70 is a pretty straightforward system.

I looked at the Timney replacement trigger. They use their own sear. That being the case, the WHY it is happening wouldn't have to be the firing pin safety notch. If the firing pin swap out of the M670 doesn't show proper function, it will become a little more involved to fix.

 

[RaySendero]

Why not just put the original trigger back?

 

[ShadeTree]

Why not just put the original trigger back?

I like original M70 triggers. They can be made pretty darn nice with little work.

According to Grry 10, Timney themselves put this trigger in, but he didn't say if this problem was right after the trigger install, or has worked fine before and just cropped up recently. If the former, Timney should make it function proper. If the latter, it's likely the firing pin notch wore.

 

[grry10]

Winchester Factory firing pin assembly for Post 64 Model 70 (Push Feed) are manufacture discontinued and Winchester doesn't have any. I'm checking Winchester parts dealer but so far no luck. Ahlman's in Minnesota did say they can build it up and re-cut the notch. Superior Shooting does manufacture a replacement that may work but isn't made to work with a safety and would need modifying. If I don't locate one, I think Ahlman's is my best solution.

 

[ShadeTree]

Winchester Factory firing pin assembly for Post 64 Model 70 (Push Feed) are manufacture discontinued and Winchester doesn't have any. I'm checking Winchester parts dealer but so far no luck. Ahlman's in Minnesota did say they can build it up and re-cut the notch. Superior Shooting does manufacture a replacement that may work but isn't made to work with a safety and would need modifying. If I don't locate one, I think Ahlman's is my best solution.

Grry, any details on exactly what is going on? Was the trigger job from Timney a while back and the safety worked until now?

Did you test the firing pin out of the Model 670 in the M70 bolt?

If so, and it worked, you could try a direct swap. Believe it or not the M70 firing pin could function the safety properly in the M670, especially if the 670 still has the factory trigger and sear. Never know until you try it.

 

[grry10]

The bolt from the 670 works in the model 70, safety (both positions) and firing. The model 70 bolt in the 670 fails. the 670 does have the original factory trigger. Truly, I don't think the problem has anything to do with the Timney trigger. What is disheartening to find out is that stocks of model 70 parts are drying up. There are a lot of these rifles still in-use in the field.

 

[ShadeTree]

The bolt from the 670 works in the model 70, safety (both positions) and firing. The model 70 bolt in the 670 fails. the 670 does have the original factory trigger. Truly, I don't think the problem has anything to do with the Timney trigger. What is disheartening to find out is that stocks of model 70 parts are drying up. There are a lot of these rifles still in-use in the field.

In a round about way, it probably does. It would be odd for the notch to wear that much from the way it came from factory. But anything is possible.

This is pure speculation as I'm not there to look at the firing pin. But sometimes Timney triggers need some modifications done to the cocking piece, safety, or in this case probably the firing pin notch for everything to function properly.

I suspect Timney had to take some material off the rear face of the firing pin notch to allow the safety to be flipped on from the fire to safety position.

They either took too much off initially, or got after it with an aggressive file first, which took the temper off the metal and it wore from there.

Just what I suspect, but can't prove it and at this point it doesn't really matter why.

It is odd parts are hard to come by??

I did some searches and there seems to be plenty of post 64 CRF bolt parts including firing pins. Push feed is hard to come by.

 

[grry10]

I think your diagnosis of the cause is spot on. When I examine the notch on the cocking piece, the last 1/8" or so is very highly polished (but not smooth from normal metal on metal ware). I've only had one shooting session with the rifle since the trigger was installed and I guess that I didn't test the safety at the end of the session. I just tested it when the rifle was returned at the time I took it out of the box. I have several Timney triggers in in Remington 700s that work fine, which I installed with no problem. The only reason that I sent my model 70 to Timney was that I had read the install could be difficult.

I contacted Timney tech support over a week ago and they asked for pictures, which I sent. I've not heard anything from them since.

 

[ShadeTree]

I think your diagnosis of the cause is spot on. When I examine the notch on the cocking piece, the last 1/8" or so is very highly polished (but not smooth from normal metal on metal ware). I've only had one shooting session with the rifle since the trigger was installed and I guess that I didn't test the safety at the end of the session. I just tested it when the rifle was returned at the time I took it out of the box. I have several Timney triggers in in Remington 700s that work fine, which I installed with no problem. The only reason that I sent my model 70 to Timney was that I had read the install could be difficult.

I contacted Timney tech support over a week ago and they asked for pictures, which I sent. I've not heard anything from them since.

You could be in luck to get it fixed easily enough. When I determined it had to be the rear face of the firing pin notch, that was figuring a factory trigger...….I still think I'm right about what is happening, but the why could've changed due to a Timney VS factory.

The Timney likely required removing material to get the safety to engage. The why it is happening would be determined on whether the safety wasn't engaging because the firing pin was too far forwards, or not forward enough.

Former would be the rear of the firing pin safety notch in which case they took too much off. Latter would be the cocking piece face, in which case they didn't take enough off.

If the latter, it wouldn't take much more. Has to be close. Any decent local smith should be able to take another .005-.010 off the cocking piece to allow the firing pin to sit forwards just a touch farther, so that the safety is holding back the firing pin when engaged, not the sear and trigger.

Again I'm surmising just running things through my head. I'm not there to look over the pieces where you can get a AHH HA, I see the problem.