Neck turning?

[Dwh7271]

Trying to gauge difference in cases and performance (accuracy) and lessen the variables on some cases and plan on turning the necks on those that need some adjustment and testing a few ideas.
When you guys turn necks, what primarily are you looking for?
The cases each to be consistent?
Even thickness between differing brass types?
Bullet centering in relation to the bore?
Combustion chamber equalization?
Also, do you notice differences in brass life depending on this procedure over a number of reloads?
Lot of questions, but this is intriguing me a little. (Also sorry if this is pretty basic stuff to you)
If I've missed something, let me know.
Thanks!

 

[SJB358]

I've never neck turned Dewy so great question. I'm all ears right now.

 

[HOGWILD338-378]

Lotta articles floating around on this but I only check run out after I have seated and get it as close as possible as from what I understand neck turning is a one time operation ?

http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-rev ... t-century/
Several articles here and much better than crap off of YouTube but I have got some good stuff from manufacturers off of YouTube!

 

[kraky]

I used to do a fair amount of neck turning before I discovered how wonderful the lee collet die is. There are people that do it that really think its important and others who don't at all. Many seem to believe that if your neck is thick on one side the whole case is and that will detract from accuracy.
Some believe in just getting the high spots off while others want to take brass down to about .013" neck wall thickness.
Bottom line is I don't think it does ANYTHING much of an improvement over using a collet die. It could be useful if using bushing dies to make the bushing be more consistant over different brands of brass. Some brass is pretty thick while win brass is usually down towards that .013" thickness.
It can help a little when full length sizing cause its worked less and your expander will not quite have the resistance going through necks that have been turned.
About the only time I turn necks nowadays is if I'm downsizing brass to another caliber. I usually turn necks on 308 brass before downsizing to 7mm-08. The other night I converted some federal gold medal 308 to 708. Icut the necks down about .0015" to right around .013" thickness and down sized them. They turned out great with good runnout. And when you cut a neck and then down size the cutting actually winds up just a hair down the shoulder on your downsized brass meaning you won't have to worry about the dreaded doughnut like you would if sizing up. All in all your average hunting rifle will gain nothing....your tight chambered targeter might....but then an accurate targeter probably doesn't need the tiny amount of help turning necks might offer.

 

[BD1]

Some say its a waste of time, others disagree, I'm of the later group. I have done side by side comparisons of non-turned and turned cartridges using identical components from identical lots using identical loading procedures and have found accuracy differences in some rifles, not all.
There are a few extra steps in my loading procedure that some may find a bother. That said, total runout on cases and loaded cartridges is consistently below .0005"
As far as case life goes, I use a Bench Source case annealer and regularly anneal cases. IME, annealed cases last longer, resize easier, and have more consistent neck tension on the bullets.
To answer your questions more succinctly, yes, yes, yes, and I can't unequivocally say one way or the other. I can only surmise that the pressures are closely equalized because the gap between velocity highs and lows across 10, 20, and 30 shot strings is narrow and SD's are very low.

 

[SJB358]

Great info. I'm a chronic annealer but I've never turned a neck. Great information.

Pictures would be great as well if any of you have them.

 

[Dwh7271]

Thank you all.
That's the kind of info I was looking for.
I also anneal and agree with all that was said on that.
I hadn't thought of the neck turning before downsizing preventing the doughnut. That's useful and something I hadn't considered. Seems like every time I ask one thing I learn something I didn't know I didn't know, if that makes sense?
Good stuff.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I turn necks for a 6 BR, a 25-06, and a 30-06. It makes the concentricity of loaded rounds (using good dies) about as perfect as you can get, assures even neck tension, and aids the use of bushing dies.

If you choose Lee collet dies in a hunting rifle with a generous chamber, I don't think you would notice a difference. If you are loading for a custom BR rifle you might notice a difference, and might not. Other dies can give you good concentricity, and if you buy high quality (i.e. Lapua) brass, the necks are very close anyway.

I started neck turning because my 30-06 has a 0.337 neck. If I use Lapua 30-06 brass it gives no clearance for a loaded round without neck turning.

 

[BD1]

Hi Dewey,
If you should decide to neck turn your cases and are using a Std. FL. Sizer, I have a tip you might find useful to reduce any runout if you are encountering it and you can also use it on other turned or non- turned cases.
Take the expander ball and stem out of your die and leave it in the box. Use a universal decapping die to decap, use your FL. Sizer as a body die and then use the carbide long tapered neck expanding/turning mandrels to expand the neck with Redding dry neck lube. The mandrel floats in the die body and resizes the neck on the down stroke of the press, essentially eliminating expander ball runout/stretching caused by pulling the factory supplied ball and stem back up and out of a case. I haven't had a neck runout/concentricity issue since adopting this process a long time ago. In addition you will end up with pretty consistent neck tension with annealed cases, interior neck diameters are consistently .002 below bullet diameters, plenty using non-cannelured bullets.
One thing can be said about having 100 turned concentric cases for your rifle, you won't have to turn them again and you have a nice baseline to work loads from.........
Just my 2 cents and hope it helps,

Bob

 

[Dwh7271]

Cool.
Good info.
Joel and Bob, thanks!

 

[RiverRider]

I turn case necks if/when I neck anything down. I generally just knock the high spots off to make sure I have no neck dimension issues.

 

[Guy Miner]

Do you guys think it makes much difference, if you're not running a match chamber & custom barrel?

And match grade, bushing type dies?

Thanks, Guy

 

[SJB358]

Hi Dewey,
If you should decide to neck turn your cases and are using a Std. FL. Sizer, I have a tip you might find useful to reduce any runout if you are encountering it and you can also use it on other turned or non- turned cases.
Take the expander ball and stem out of your die and leave it in the box. Use a universal decapping die to decap, use your FL. Sizer as a body die and then use the carbide long tapered neck expanding/turning mandrels to expand the neck with Redding dry neck lube. The mandrel floats in the die body and resizes the neck on the down stroke of the press, essentially eliminating expander ball runout/stretching caused by pulling the factory supplied ball and stem back up and out of a case. I haven't had a neck runout/concentricity issue since adopting this process a long time ago. In addition you will end up with pretty consistent neck tension with annealed cases, interior neck diameters are consistently .002 below bullet diameters, plenty using non-cannelured bullets.
One thing can be said about having 100 turned concentric cases for your rifle, you won't have to turn them again and you have a nice baseline to work loads from.........
Just my 2 cents and hope it helps,

Bob

Bob, post a link to the mandrels your talking about. I'd like to give one a whirl I think.

I am with Guy right now, but I am always willing to try something else to see how it works.

 

[Elkman]

I have never found a need or a reason to involve my self in neck turning. I don't believe that the amount of accuracy that is gained would be worth my while. It seems to make little sense for a hunter. It probably makes a great deal of sense for a target, or very long range shooter.

 

[BD1]

Do you guys think it makes much difference, if you're not running a match chamber & custom barrel?

And match grade, bushing type dies?

Thanks, Guy

Guy,
Im stuck on the fence and couldn't say definitively one way or another. During my experimenting there has been improvement in some of my factory rifles, not much in others, and that's not an empirical result. I think it is a piece of a larger puzzle and it depends on a individuals particular rifle, the uniformity of the brass, components, loading technique, and shooting skill to determine.



Scotty, here's a link,

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-e ... 33136.aspx


Bob

 

[HOGWILD338-378]

Link below is just a basic link on many aspects of neck turning and it's benefits and I have read a lot of these and like it explains it depends on how accurate you want your rifle to shoot or what it takes for your rifle to shoot accurately! Lotta great articles that have taught me more than I knew a few days ago and it's nice to know as I have learned a lot about what it is all about and to me it's about working the brass to make rifles more accurate and these articles explain a lot! I would say the rifles you wanta shoot the most accurate with work the brass and the ones that are not having issues maybe not so much but. It explains why you need to measure your necks if you are going to neck size them or your not ! Lotta good info and everyone needs more tools to gain accuracy
As mentioned it's is needed when necking up or down or when your necks measure outta limits as to them not allowing concentric tension ! :shock: the pictures convinced me it needs to be done!!

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technica ... ng-basics/

 

[SJB358]

Do you guys think it makes much difference, if you're not running a match chamber & custom barrel?

And match grade, bushing type dies?

Thanks, Guy

Guy,
Im stuck on the fence and couldn't say definitively one way or another. During my experimenting there has been improvement in some of my factory rifles, not much in others, and that's not an empirical result. I think it is a piece of a larger puzzle and it depends on a individuals particular rifle, the uniformity of the brass, components, loading technique, and shooting skill to determine.



Scotty, here's a link,

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-e ... 33136.aspx


Bob

Bob, do you just run the Sinclair die for the expander mandrels?

Oh, and why would I have to have two separate dies for 338 and below and 35 caliber and above? Just asking. Mike showed them to me once and now I am sorta interested again. If it'll help reduce runout I am all in.

 

[kraky]

Speaking as a person who's dabbled in neck turning AND owns a lee collect die and redding body die I can say that for my purposes.....the collect and body are a GREAT and reasonably priced combo to get a good step up in sizing and concentricity control.
If you've got "something" that does what the collet and body do......then you are probably ready to move into and dabble w/neck turning.
If you don't have something like the collect/body I might be compelled to say.......get them first.
They can help you load excellent ammo fast.....go shoot your gun and work on the magic load....you might get a more fantastic result than worrying about that tiny bit of material to cut off he outside of your neck.

 

[jimbires]

Scotty , I think it must be a different size stem on the mandrels why there are two different die bodies . . I only have the small die because I don't have anything larger than a .338 .

here is my opinion , or random thoughts on neck turning .

I really don't think a factory gun will benefit much from neck turning . I'd say the chamber is loose enough that it's not an issue .

after you turn the neck , the brass is thinner causing the neck to expand more to reach the chamber walls . now when it's resized it is getting worked more . so if your not annealing now you should be with thinner necks .

I have a little bit of about every brand of brass . the Norma brass I have will 100% clean up with less than 0.0005 ( half a thousandths ) cut . I think this better brass in a factory chamber will be more than enough to get the best accuracy available from the factory rifle . I have some old frontier brass that is horrible . I'd have to check it again , but if my memory is right it's off by .003 - .004 .

if your using bushing dies without the expander , I feel a turned neck is necessary . a bushing will push all the unevenness of the brass to the inside of the neck leaving the bullet to push the irregularities back to the outside of the neck when seated . for top accuracy bullets should not be used as such .

R W Hart makes a very nice tool " hart case holder " that uses redding shellholders . I use this tool with a very slow rpm power screwdriver to turn my brass .
http://www.rwhart.com/store/products.asp?cat=32&pg=2

keep in mind that if you make a cut .001 deep , your neck is now .002 smaller diameter .

I agree with the poster above , a Lee collet neck die with a redding body die makes pretty good brass .
this is all I can think of right now .

 

[BD1]

You made some very good points Jim, especially about better brass and being able to take a half a thousandths cut to clean it up even if that's necessary being sufficient for factory rifles.
Since a lot of reloaders blanche at the thought of paying well over a C-note plus shipping for 100 cases of Norma, Lapua, Nosler brass,... maybe a missing part of this conversation should include at which point would one might consider neck turning with non-premium brass to bring it back to a reasonable spec. to insure concentricity and reliable accuracy performance in most factory rifles ? .002", .003", or .004" out in neck wall thickness ???
Like you, I have also run into some large extremes in thicknesses. With some limited brass availability and the rising costs, How many would rather turn it than toss it ?