Need a long range bullet

Anybody on here knows that when stalking a big buck or bull, if they see you, they are usually gone. They didn't get that big by being stupid. I use my shooting skills as an advantage to myself to bring home meat, and fill my tag. For the record yes, longrange hunting is probly a differnt type of breed of people, thats not a bad thing. Take how many hunters there are, and then take how many great shots there are. The normal hunters far outweight the guy who can shoot really good. The guys who can shoot really good, rarely wound animals because they pick there shot more precisely. They dont just go out and bang at animals at unknown distances when they dont even know where there rifles sighted in at. I get more gratitification out of making a 500 yard shot vs a 200 yard shot. Thats what I practice for all year. It puts a smile on my face either way, but I love to watch something fold up at a greater distance. That means my ability obviously outweighed the games abilitiy that day. Long range sniping on game is hilarious. Once again, long range is defined by ones own personal ability. Its nobodys place to tell someone how far is to far when more then half the people dont even have a freaking clue as to what it really takes to make a shot past 300 yards and do so with consistency. I am not alone out here, in fact there are far more people who shoot game at 1k and farther ona regular basis. With a better rifle set up, I will be going for that 1k goal real soon. You want to keep pushing you and your rifles limitations. But then again, the non long range hunter has no idea what it takes. They just think since they cant do it, no one can. JonA makes some pretty good points. Tree stand hunting, deer have no sense to look up in a tree. But yet thousands do it. Running deer at 100 yards, people do it all the time. You think there 100% going to hit it. THere really is no 100% with a shot in hunting. Its funny how some think that just because the range is 300 or closer, its a 100% hit rate, bull crap, the same techniques and what not apply to a shot at 300 or 600 or 800 for that matter. ITs all about the guy behind the trigger, with the right rifle, scope, rangefinder, windmeter, good loads, and practice who can do so. This argument can go on forever, but lets just come to one conclusion. As long as the game dies quickly and humanely, who cares how long the shot is. There are people up to the task, and I have noticed in this sport, seeing is believing a lot of times. So unless you all see a 600-800 yard shot done regularly, becuased most cant do it, because they have no idea what it takes, they automatically call bullshit. Which is bullshit in my opinion. You can all defend your type of hunting while I continue to defend mine. But we should all come to the conclusion that the average joe who shoots a box of shells a year, since the number of average joes far outweight the precision shooter, wounds thousands compared to maybe that 1 shot that got away from a long range hunter. But once again you ask, does that justify making a long shot, yadda yadda yadda. Your worried about the precisoin shooter losing an animal, when your concerns should be at the guy who doesn't shoot often if at all, and does not practice much if at all. Because they wound thousands of deer and elk each year.
 
Look at Nosler’s post for “reliable” expansion with AccuBond, 1600 not 1400. I think I would stick with the opinion of the expert. I don’t doubt that you can hit a deer over 500 yards. With a vital zone of about 9” depending on the size of the deer, any rifle that will shoot MOA is capable. I just don’t think you can do it as consistently as you ought to, especially in field conditions. By your own admission you only hit jugs 9/10 times from the same position at your range. If you try what I said before, and shoot in the field from a position that you are not familiar with I would bet that your number would drop to half that, if not worse. That’s just not good enough for a big game animal.

In terms of long range hunting I think a long range shot are fine, if you can guarantee that you can make the first shot count every time under any conditions. If you can do it at 600 yards then that fine. I just don’t think you can. However, if I’m wrong then you should win every shooting tournament you’d ever enter and you could die a filthy rich man. But I’m waiting until I see your name in Guns and Ammo before I believe for a second that you can consistently do it. My opinion, eventually you will wound an animal, if you haven’t already, but that post won’t make it on this board, will it. You'll continue to tell us all how we don’t have “what it takes”. I guess you’re right. We don’t have an ego that supersedes the respect that we have for the animals we hunt.
 
There is just no such thing as 100% reliability when any of us pull the trigger. if you shoot enough animals under 100 yards you will eventually mess up. If it hasn't happened yet you probably just haven't shot enough animals. It is not a matter of range - it is a matter of skill and none of us has enough to be failure proof at any range 100% of the time.
 
To quote the quote that was quoted..."natural abilities to escape"

We don't want them to escape. That is why we put a bullet in 'em.
 
Roysclockgun, I've been following quite closely all that has been written about long range shooting (notice I didn't call it hunting) and your comments along with a number of other writers is absolutely correct, however you are never going to convince Remington man. His ego is bigger than the caliber he is shooting. As has been mentioned, until he shows up in Guns and Ammo or Petersons hunting my take on him is that of being one fantastic BS artist. It's easy to read between his lines and say to yourself, what a problem this guy has. I've broached this subject with a number of people involved in Long range target shooting and to a person each of them has said this guy is full of himself. At that range as has been said "A bullet will not expand and travels through the animal and if hitting bone just stops and the animal dies two weeks later of an infection. By the way if you need any info for the area we're hunting in Colorado let me know.
 
big rifle man: You are correct, we have entered the realm of discussing "politics and religion" and no one's mind will be changed, one way or the other. The good news is, there is lots of good information exchanged on this board, so keep on posting and have fun.
In what area are you hunting Colorado? Other then Parachute, I hunted Durango. We had lots of bulls answering calls around Durango, but after hunting four days, my knee acted up and I had to go down. Out of the other four rifles in camp, three killed bulls and one older fellow had three shots on bulls and missed all. I like the Parachute hunt, as that one is unguided and I only rent the cabin and the horses from the rancher. Finding the elk is up to me.
 
Thats one big problem some of you have, you sit around reading more hunting mags and not shooting. I dont even like reading mags anymore because they all say the same thing. No one has any business shooting over 400 yards. Well there is still a certain select few who can and will. Thats that. Get off the couch, get to the range and put 1000 rounds a year at 500-800 yards and maybe you'll all lighten up. As for convincing me, yah your right, you never will. I will always be practicing to extend my shooting range. Thats what I do, and love to do. I'm not the only sole one here who dosn't believe in not shooting LR at animals. I'm just really not afraid to keep believing its not possible, because it is. And I'm not the only one who states that no shot is 100% guarantee whether it be 100 yards or 600 yards. And for the record, as a longrange shooter/hunter, I get to pick my conditions to shoot in, or I wont pull the trigger. Target shooters are ona set date, if the winds blowing 15mph, they still have to shoot. I dont have to, and I wont. All you who dont believe me, anytime your in Oregon, please give me a call, and I"ll show you what I can do. I dont have to be in any stupid magazine, becasue there like 90% of the population who cant hit anythign past 300 yards. You gota remember there not going to advocate shooting past that distance when 90% of people pick up that magazine have no business shooting that far, ever think of that. There still select few who can and do, and will continue doing so. Do you think that people on here will post that they wounded a deer at 200 yards and let it get away?? Probly not because 200 yards is a cake shot. So the next time you think we woudn something and dont tell, theres probly 100 wounded at shorter distances because theres no such thing as a 100% guarantee. Obviously you guys dont get that. We have the ability and equipment to make a shot at longer ranges just as well, if not better then the avergae joe taking a 200 yard shot. IF you all dont, cant, and wont believe it, thats your guys problem. I have yet to wound something, the day might come when I do, and when it does, I'll gladly post my experience or result. But untill then, I'll keep doing what I do, and you all can do what you do. I'll take a 200 yard shot just as I will a 600 yard shof if the condiditons are right.
 
And by the way, if any of you have the barnes manual. Look at the badlands training course. With the peopole that took it, they said they would never shoot at an animal at 500 yards period. Most of them said after the course, they would take the shot with confidence in gailing force winds. Words from Jessica Treu. Sounds like a lot of you guys. Would never do it, untill you learn the proper ways to do so. So stop being so ignorant and open your eyes. If posting true experiences and the proper way to become a great shot at 500-600 yards, then for god sakes I guess I am the biggest BS artist there is. For the people who know other wise, I'm just one of few who knows what it takes, and it takes quite a bit of practice and knowlege.

And the comment about the range and bullet not expanding. Did you not see the velocity and energy figures for a 200g AB at 3200fps??? Are you joking me?? The so called xperts say you need 1500lbs for elk, the 300 RUM still has that at almost 1000 yards. It will crush the shoulders and mutilate the lungs resulting in a very dead elk. You crack me up. The elk will die 2 weeks later. Yah with a gut shot, whether from a 243 or 300 RUM, no matter the distance. YOu have your points, I have mine.
 
Look, I can see we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Just one thing I need to clear up. It’s not a question of “can you,” it’s a question of “should you”. Lots of people shoot good enough from the bench, but don’t hunt the way you do. If the slightest thing goes wrong in the field you’ve got a wounded animal on your hands. It’s darn near impossible to get everything right with every shot under different field conditions at that distance. 600 yards is a long way off. Assuming you’ve got the wind and other variables right, if Mr. Antlers suddenly decides to take a step forward then your perfect chest shot just turned into the perfect gut shot. At 300 yards that step forward would have hit the diaphragm/liver area and it still goes down. But you don’t seem to mind taking two, three, or four shots to bring an animal down. I don’t think it’s ethical to hunt like that.

What I’m saying doesn’t come from sitting in the lazy-boy reading a bunch of magazines. I’ve been deer hunting since I was nine years old. I’ve never missed a deer, and never had to shoot twice. Why? Is it because I’m such a great shot? No. I just don’t shoot unless I am 100% sure I can make the first shot count. I’ve even gotten in the habit of going into the field with a once shot barrel to eliminate that first shot flier that sometimes occurs with a clean barrel.

My advice would be to learn to stalk. But, hunt the way you think you should, and keep practicing. But be prepared because you’re setting yourself up for a wounded, hard to track, and likely lost animal the way you’re hunting. I’d rather see the critter go free than do that to it. Also, sorry to solaman for hijacking your post. Good luck getting them deer this year.
 
Just got finished reading some of the previous posts. If you're patient with your shots then 100% efficiency is possible. But that means you have to limit your range, and take mostly broadside shots. And I may be cheating, because I've done most of my hunting in Oklahoma and Texas. The season is long, plenty of deer around, and if I don't get a deer on one week, there's aways next week. I guess if you're hunting out west you don't always have that luxury. Then you get desperate and take shots that maybe you shouldn't. I was raised to make the first shot count, even if that means you don't fill all of your tags. I've seen wounded deer and hunters chasing after them. It's not a sight I like to see.
 
260, amen to your comments. right on the money. I suggest that if you ever meet Remington you wear a pair of boots, you'll need them. Roy, I've hunted the Uncompahgre plateau (Delta) 1st season and managed a 6X6. Great animals in the Southwest portion, and buy the way I shot him at 197 yards. This area is Unit 62 and is directly West of Unit 61 which is a Limited area. (About 5-10 years to draw). The area we hunted last season and plan to hunt this year is unit 131. Mostly private land. The Trespass fee is right and you are on your own. We hunt 4000 acres and there are a total of 6 people on the property at any given time. As I mentioned everyone we met was friendly and Yampa is full of great people. Take care and if you ever get down to Palm bay (Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club) give me a yell.
 
Hey, 25-06, read on another post that you're about to head off into the Army. Heading to Iraq? Have a cousin flying a black hawk there right now. Good luck and stay safe. Put that 1150 yard practicing to use on those insurgent bastards. I don't care if it takes 20 shots to bring down those SOBs.
 
.260 handgun -

In reality wounding a person puts more strain on a unit than just killing him outright. The medic gets to use his training. Some who would be cannon fodder gets to pack the strectcher. Assuming the emeny cares about their wounded.......

Just a thought.
Steve D. the HP
 
Thanks for the luck. I am not going into the infantry, so I dont get to shoot as much as I would like. But I want to have a career after the ARMY, thats why I'm not going into the infantry. My job is a 92F, which is a fuel supply specialists, basically fueling up tanks and helicopters. I will be going through college to be an electrician and get my journey mans liscense. I am going to try for the ARMY marksmenship team though. I leave to basic in fort jackson, SC in 3 weeks. Then, for my AIT training, I'm off to fort lee, VA. Hopefully I'll get stationed out west, I've already lived back east, NJ, and I didn't like it. I know the reason why the ARMY uses the .223 and FMJ bullets, its to wound soldiers because it takes at least 1 or 2 more soldiers to care for the wounded one. My recruiter was surprised I knew that. I also told him that I like to shoot LR, and he tried getting me to go into infantry then sniper school. Dont get me wrong, I'd love to go to sniper school, but I dont want to go into infantry, and I hope I dont go to Iraq. I would love to continue hunting and shooting after the ARMY and I just dont really want to be getting shot at and have more of a chance of dying. Hopefully I'll still get to shoot the 50 cal though, that would be swwweeeeeet.
 
Just be careful. The way they're using the guard I would seriously doubt that as an Army guy you'd be able to stay in the states for long. Hopefully the fact that you'll be going to school as well will help you stay. I can see why you wouldn't like the east coast, especially NJ. But SC and VA are pretty nice. Two of the more deer dense states in the country. But too hilly and full of trees for very many 600 yard shots. At least for the parts of those states that I've been through. You'll have to hunt more like I do. Sorry.
 
Remington25-06, keep your head down. My son-in-law, now a career Major and up for LtCol, is Quartermaster also and spent time in Ft Lee, the home of Quartermaster. He was deployed twice to Iraq and once to Afghanistan and was involved in the Somalia battle and served more as Infantry, than as QM! He and his QM troops had to have strong perimeters around the fuel bladders. With NODS they put out a fair number of rounds all night, keeping thieves away from the fuel. Most of the people that they grabbed were not terrorists, just sand monkeys trying to rip off fuel. So, if you do get deployed into an area where you have a chance to hear shots fired in anger, I will pray for you.
 
I lost a pretty good Whitetail several years ago at well under 100 yards. As near as I could tell the bullet (165gr from a 30-06) hit a small limb before getting to the animal. I am not sure where he was hit but he was hit pretty hard. I spent most of the day hunting for him but the blood trail played out in a swamp and that was that. I lost a Mule Deer once when hit with a .270 at just over 100 yards. He moved just as the trigger broke and I know the bullet went in too far back. I finally got another shot in but it was low and got the front leg. He got over on another ranch and I couldn't follow. I envy you guys that never miss or wound - I really do but I think you are kidding yourselfs. IF YOU KEEP AT IT YOU WILL. I have been hunting for over forty years and I hunt with some of the most accomplished experienced hunters and shooters out there. We have all screwed up at one time or another. I took four deer last season with five shots. The first deer was a big Mule Deer buck that was down for the count after being hit with a 160 AccuBond from a 7mm Ultra Mag. at a lasered 184 yards. I knew he wasn't going anywhere, but when he lifted his head I put another one in him. My philosophy is to shoot until they are down and dead and it was learned long ago the hard way - bullets are cheap. And one shot bedamned, for goodness sake it there is EVER any doubt the animal is dead put another one in. There have been innumerable nunters that have been seriously hurt or killed by animals they thought were dead.
 
jbdre wrote: ".....My philosophy is to shoot until they are down and dead ...."

I go along with that 100%. Too many "dead" deer have gotten up and run off while a hunter was not ready to put another round into him. This happens in the east quite a bit, when the hunter is climbing out of a tree stand with his empty firearm already safely unloaded and on the ground. I learned a long time ago to keep the sights on the animal, even after he is down. Wait five minutes or more and do not take the sights off his heart/lung area. The waiting also always for your own heart rate to return to something near normal, before you begin to exert anymore energy. It seems to me that whitetails being comparatively light in weight, will jump up quicker after being knocked down, then will muley or elk. Maybe that is just because I've seen more whitetails getting up with broken shoulders. Thirty eight years ago, I hit a whitetail buck and he went right down and hard. Being young and stupid, I began moving toward the buck and was not ready wnen he began running on just his rear legs, with his front shoulders plowing along the ground. I found out later, that my shot had broken both his shoulders. Had I waited, he would've bled out and probably would've not even attempted to rise, but the sound of my approach got his blood pumping and he was able to get up enough to take off. I did later catch him deep in the wooda and finished him, but I had learned a lesson.
 
Even when I hunt with my single shot pistol I make sure to carry two extra shells just in case. Knock on wood, I haven't had to use a second shot yet. Maybe I've just been lucky. And I haven't been hunting for 40 years quite yet. But it's probably due to the way I hunt more than anything else. I'm more than willing to let the animal walk if I don't think I've got a good shot. And my longest shot was 230 "steps." That was the way I measured distance before I got my first rangefinder a few years back. But I'd say 95%+ of my shots were less and 100, and most of them less than 75 "steps."

I guess the main thing is that you should be 100% confident that your first shot will do the job. If something beyond your control happens, then I agree, keep shooting till it's down and stays down. When you're shooting over 300, and definitely over 400 yards then you're not even trying to be 100%. Before you pull the trigger you know you’re not going to be 100%. You're likely planning on slowing the animal down enough that shots two and three will get the job done. But then I guess we're back into religion.
 
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