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Nosler 17 Caliber?
- Thread starter Ladobe
- Start date
This is a common question. Right now our production is so packed by making AccuBond, Ballistic Tip, Partition and other stuff that a 17 isn't in the cards. However I will tell you this.
Demand and consumer inquires like this have a HUGH factor in determining what products we want to make. If I have 1,000's of people telling me a 17 BT is needed, then I could pretty much say YES. But right now we have 1,000s of requests for different AccuBonds, BT's and Partition's that a 17 sits low on our priority.
Hope that helps!
Demand and consumer inquires like this have a HUGH factor in determining what products we want to make. If I have 1,000's of people telling me a 17 BT is needed, then I could pretty much say YES. But right now we have 1,000s of requests for different AccuBonds, BT's and Partition's that a 17 sits low on our priority.
Hope that helps!
Ballistic tipped 17 cal bullets of 25 and 30 grains are just what so many .17 guys want. It's a shame that Brand X's heaviest offering is the 20 grain, but even it has a flat base. We really need the high BC with the explosive characteristics of varmint bullets.
One thing I hope the first maker of this kind of .17 bullet will do is avoid the trap of making them like a VLD. While these shoot fine in custom bbls, they often won't in factory chambers that are so often throated way too deep. A boat tail would be necessary, but there needs to be enough bearing surface to maintain concentricity when the bullet makes the long jump across all that factory freebore into the rifling.
I suspect the first maker who gets this combo with the ballistic tipped, boat tailed .172" bullet and the same bearing surface length as a standard 25 grain bullet will sell many bullets to owners of all classes of guns - both custom and factory alike. There are plenty of VLD's out there to choose from already, and what the market sorely lack is the bullet I speak of for the common man's rilfe. There are quite a few more companies making and selling .17 Rem's these days.
Over the past year, Walt Berger and I e-mailed about his developing a 30 grain boat tail bullet. I was disappointed to find the bullet that was introduced a few weeks ago has a bearing surface even shoeter than their 25 grain flat base bullet. His idea of a length tolerant design (LTB) was excellent, but I have my doubts that it will shoot in a gun like mine that came from the factory with so much freebore that a 30 grain bullet pushed all the way out of the case won't touch the lands. It will be a sad day when all my Starke 25's are gone...Clint had the meplat just right. Of course, a ballistic tip would solve this problem, too. MEF's slow down too quickly, and the match bullets pass through groundhogs too often.
While I wish Nosler all the success possible with its line of bullets, it would be nice if the fine folks there could find time to make the .172 a priority. The success of the .17HMR surprised few who shoot .17's, and I think the kind of bullet I describe has similar potential. I wonder how many executives who have the say-so are .17 shooters...therein lies the problem.
I'm excited about this site, and my shooting cap is off to you. Thanks to all who are making it happen!
dan
One thing I hope the first maker of this kind of .17 bullet will do is avoid the trap of making them like a VLD. While these shoot fine in custom bbls, they often won't in factory chambers that are so often throated way too deep. A boat tail would be necessary, but there needs to be enough bearing surface to maintain concentricity when the bullet makes the long jump across all that factory freebore into the rifling.
I suspect the first maker who gets this combo with the ballistic tipped, boat tailed .172" bullet and the same bearing surface length as a standard 25 grain bullet will sell many bullets to owners of all classes of guns - both custom and factory alike. There are plenty of VLD's out there to choose from already, and what the market sorely lack is the bullet I speak of for the common man's rilfe. There are quite a few more companies making and selling .17 Rem's these days.
Over the past year, Walt Berger and I e-mailed about his developing a 30 grain boat tail bullet. I was disappointed to find the bullet that was introduced a few weeks ago has a bearing surface even shoeter than their 25 grain flat base bullet. His idea of a length tolerant design (LTB) was excellent, but I have my doubts that it will shoot in a gun like mine that came from the factory with so much freebore that a 30 grain bullet pushed all the way out of the case won't touch the lands. It will be a sad day when all my Starke 25's are gone...Clint had the meplat just right. Of course, a ballistic tip would solve this problem, too. MEF's slow down too quickly, and the match bullets pass through groundhogs too often.
While I wish Nosler all the success possible with its line of bullets, it would be nice if the fine folks there could find time to make the .172 a priority. The success of the .17HMR surprised few who shoot .17's, and I think the kind of bullet I describe has similar potential. I wonder how many executives who have the say-so are .17 shooters...therein lies the problem.
I'm excited about this site, and my shooting cap is off to you. Thanks to all who are making it happen!
dan
- Thread starter
- #5
Nosler - Thanks for the great suggestion of making the distinction between rimfire and centerfire bullets.
Ladobe - You shoot quite a variety of .17's, while my two so far are a 14" .17AH (Bullberry) and a .17 Rem VSS. The AH liked AA1680 and Brand X's 20 grain bullet right away. But the .17VSS was fussy because of the excess freebore and rough factory bbl, so it won't shoot well with bullets of average quality jackets (Brand X) or the spendy boat tails with J4 jackets, high caliber ogives and short bearing surfaces. This rifle is the norm for Rem and shows the need for the kind of bullet I'm talking about. There are some quality makers turning out better centerfires now, both here and in Europe, which will also ensure the centerfire success. When I bought mine, Rem was the only SS rifle made - and it was one in a special run for a big dealer.
You really understand the subcaliber market, and the bullet companies left behind will have exec's who just don't get it. Thank God for Brand X's proven vision for the 17 cal market over the last 2 decades. Yes, today's .17 rimfire shooters are now buying .17 centerfires and will fuel the market in the same way they have done with the rimfires. It's amazing that makers of ballistic tipped bullets haven't uderstood what has happened in the market or improved the medium weight bullets (between 25 and 30 grains) for the centerfire.
Without committing to a full line of .17 bullets, it would be unwise to join the crowd for a small market share of the rimfire bullets. Instead, there's an obvious niche that can be filled with this one bullet style that would put them out in front. Nosler is in a great position to steal the show here.
You're also right about the future .17 high power market growth. Everything points to its increase. The rimfire shooters have discovered a great thing, want more of it, are going and will go centerfire as well. The subcaliber is superbly uniquely poised to take advantage of the decrease in wide open shooting spaces, modest report, laser-like ballistics, ease on fur, and ability to let the shooter watch the whole show in the scope. There's no need for a loud muzzle brake or to ask "Did I get him?".
I don't even need a spotter anymore and solo varmint hunts have become something altogether new and the fun factor has been bumped up a whole level. And I have plenty of company on the shooting boards.
dan
Ladobe - You shoot quite a variety of .17's, while my two so far are a 14" .17AH (Bullberry) and a .17 Rem VSS. The AH liked AA1680 and Brand X's 20 grain bullet right away. But the .17VSS was fussy because of the excess freebore and rough factory bbl, so it won't shoot well with bullets of average quality jackets (Brand X) or the spendy boat tails with J4 jackets, high caliber ogives and short bearing surfaces. This rifle is the norm for Rem and shows the need for the kind of bullet I'm talking about. There are some quality makers turning out better centerfires now, both here and in Europe, which will also ensure the centerfire success. When I bought mine, Rem was the only SS rifle made - and it was one in a special run for a big dealer.
You really understand the subcaliber market, and the bullet companies left behind will have exec's who just don't get it. Thank God for Brand X's proven vision for the 17 cal market over the last 2 decades. Yes, today's .17 rimfire shooters are now buying .17 centerfires and will fuel the market in the same way they have done with the rimfires. It's amazing that makers of ballistic tipped bullets haven't uderstood what has happened in the market or improved the medium weight bullets (between 25 and 30 grains) for the centerfire.
Without committing to a full line of .17 bullets, it would be unwise to join the crowd for a small market share of the rimfire bullets. Instead, there's an obvious niche that can be filled with this one bullet style that would put them out in front. Nosler is in a great position to steal the show here.
You're also right about the future .17 high power market growth. Everything points to its increase. The rimfire shooters have discovered a great thing, want more of it, are going and will go centerfire as well. The subcaliber is superbly uniquely poised to take advantage of the decrease in wide open shooting spaces, modest report, laser-like ballistics, ease on fur, and ability to let the shooter watch the whole show in the scope. There's no need for a loud muzzle brake or to ask "Did I get him?".
I don't even need a spotter anymore and solo varmint hunts have become something altogether new and the fun factor has been bumped up a whole level. And I have plenty of company on the shooting boards.
dan
- Thread starter
- #7
Larry,
I've always enjoyed following your posts on the Digger Wars. I hope you'll consider submitting a story of the next one to Varmint Hunter Magazine.
Nosler is the true innovator in ballistic tipped bullets, and it would be a great thing to see them score huge in the developing subcaliber market. I think they could design it right and fill the void the other companies are missing.
There are some fine hollow points out there, but a true ballistic tip would absolutely steal the show. I'd like to see this great innovator of a company rise to the top again. This is a rare opportunity and somebody is going to see it someday.
dan
I've always enjoyed following your posts on the Digger Wars. I hope you'll consider submitting a story of the next one to Varmint Hunter Magazine.
Nosler is the true innovator in ballistic tipped bullets, and it would be a great thing to see them score huge in the developing subcaliber market. I think they could design it right and fill the void the other companies are missing.
There are some fine hollow points out there, but a true ballistic tip would absolutely steal the show. I'd like to see this great innovator of a company rise to the top again. This is a rare opportunity and somebody is going to see it someday.
dan
- Thread starter
- #9
glenn asher
Beginner
- Sep 29, 2004
- 15
- 0
Count me in, although I don't have a .17 Centerfire, yet, my shooting buddy does, and he is having fits with Brand X's bullets, the only thing easily available around here. It sure would be nice to have some more choices for his LVSF Remington, and the CZ I intend to buy. Thanks for listening to us all!
glenn asher
Beginner
- Sep 29, 2004
- 15
- 0
Count me in, although I don't have a .17 Centerfire, yet, my shooting buddy does, and he is having fits with Brand X's bullets, the only thing easily available around here. It sure would be nice to have some more choices for his LVSF Remington, and the CZ I intend to buy. Thanks for listening to us all!
Ladobe - Thanks for steering me to the article. I remember it now and still have that issue (and it was well done, too). Next year might be a good time for a follow up article. I'm amazed at how many bigger bore shooters are interested in the subcalibers now. My shooting buddy was telling me that he wants one now, and you could've knocked me over with a feather.
Glenn - Having been down the road with Brand X, I understand and feel his pain. Their hollow point thing is hardly worth using to break in a high velocity bbl. Their 20 grain does fairly well in a medium velocity round like a .17AH, and the main reason I use it is because of the ballistic tip. But with the flat base, it's tricky to seat unless I chamfer the case mouth with a VDL deburring tool. (yet another reason why a slight boat tail will do well)
The most common problems with Rem's are the rough bbls and excessive freebore. Their bbls will usually calm down after 300 or so rounds and foul a less, but the combo of rather poor quality of Brand X's jackets and slow burning powder drastically increase fouling. The fouling problem can be licked by using a faster powder (AA2015, H322, Benchmark), using high quality jackets (such as J4), and waxing or shooting moly (waxing has none of the moly disadvantages). The boat tails that have a shorter bearing surface than the 25 grain Berger can't be seated close enough to the lands for good accuracy. Also, the longer bearing surface of a 30 grain flat base bullets can actually add to fouling, so the good flat base 25's are best.
These findings are very typical of Rem's guns. Another thing that can help shave 0.3" or so off the groups is to get consistent neck tension by turning neck enough to knock off the high spots.
I hope Nosler will look into problems like these in bullet design, because if they do it right they will sell bullets to everybody who has a factory number as well as the custom jobs.
dan
Glenn - Having been down the road with Brand X, I understand and feel his pain. Their hollow point thing is hardly worth using to break in a high velocity bbl. Their 20 grain does fairly well in a medium velocity round like a .17AH, and the main reason I use it is because of the ballistic tip. But with the flat base, it's tricky to seat unless I chamfer the case mouth with a VDL deburring tool. (yet another reason why a slight boat tail will do well)
The most common problems with Rem's are the rough bbls and excessive freebore. Their bbls will usually calm down after 300 or so rounds and foul a less, but the combo of rather poor quality of Brand X's jackets and slow burning powder drastically increase fouling. The fouling problem can be licked by using a faster powder (AA2015, H322, Benchmark), using high quality jackets (such as J4), and waxing or shooting moly (waxing has none of the moly disadvantages). The boat tails that have a shorter bearing surface than the 25 grain Berger can't be seated close enough to the lands for good accuracy. Also, the longer bearing surface of a 30 grain flat base bullets can actually add to fouling, so the good flat base 25's are best.
These findings are very typical of Rem's guns. Another thing that can help shave 0.3" or so off the groups is to get consistent neck tension by turning neck enough to knock off the high spots.
I hope Nosler will look into problems like these in bullet design, because if they do it right they will sell bullets to everybody who has a factory number as well as the custom jobs.
dan
I too would like to encourage Nosler to add a 17 caliber bullet or two to the line. As a gun dealer I see a real "chicken or egg" thing going on with the 17's. The 17 rimfires sparked a real interest in sub calibers amongst our customers, and the increased availabilty of the 17 Rem in a variety of new rifles over the last couple of years has been great. But, I still find many of my customers reluctant to jump into the fray, largely because of concerns about ammo and componants. Those of us dedicated to the small calibers rarely think twice about forming cases, or buying bullets from small production or custom manufacturers. But the majority of my customers want to see the BIG names they know already. They are nervous about buying a rifle when there is only one choice of bullet or ammo out there. So my customers. . . "Would like to try the 17's, but there aren't enough bullets available". . . "We'd like too make bullets but there isn't enough interest yet". . . "Well maybe I'll try one when some more companys offer bullets" . . . "When more shooters jump in we'll give it a serious look" . I have guys that mulled over buying a 17 for years, that dove in when Hornady added a second bullet to the line! That was all it took, a single new offering! I have others that want to see some one else out there . . . "Just in case". I sell a lot of Nosler bullets, my customers love them, many use them exclusivly. How many would join the 17 bandwagon if they just saw another major player join the game? I realize that tooling up for a new bullet is a costly risk, but the small caliber crowd is pretty loyal and persuasive in my experience, I know they'd be on my shelves and I'll bet I'm not alone.
Thanks - John
Thanks - John
TonyRumore
Beginner
- Oct 3, 2004
- 1
- 0
It was a sad day when Starke packed it in. Clint's 30gr 17 cal bullet was hands down the most accurate bullet out of the Tromix 17rem AR-15 rifles. I would certainly love to see a Nosler 30gr ballistic tip added to the lineup.
Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp
Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp
First off, Thank you folks at Nosler for coming up with this site, its great to have a place to communicate with the actual manufacterers. Too many times on our smaller boards we are just able to wish and dream amongst ourselves.I think there are a lot of guys who simple believe its a lost cause to expect anything really new or good can come from the big guys,
whether were talking cars, guns, or bullets.Second I have always liked and used BT's in my larger varmint guns,after all you are the guys who invented poly tipped bullets in the first place.I shoot 9 different 17 cal rifles,they range from the small 17AH to the 17PPC All are useful and I
do fairly well with what is currently available bullet wise. I have always
asked Chub Eastman about the idea of a 17 bullet from Nosler while we would visit at the VHA jamboree.He would very nicely let me down easy.
I believe a 25grn BT and a 30 would be gobbled up by consumers.
To put it simply just look at the over whelming sales of 17HMR and know 17HM2.I won't go into the actual ogive style,bt versus flat base or such just yet.For me it is enough that you fine folks are listening.TIA
TTFN
Matt :grin:
whether were talking cars, guns, or bullets.Second I have always liked and used BT's in my larger varmint guns,after all you are the guys who invented poly tipped bullets in the first place.I shoot 9 different 17 cal rifles,they range from the small 17AH to the 17PPC All are useful and I
do fairly well with what is currently available bullet wise. I have always
asked Chub Eastman about the idea of a 17 bullet from Nosler while we would visit at the VHA jamboree.He would very nicely let me down easy.
I believe a 25grn BT and a 30 would be gobbled up by consumers.
To put it simply just look at the over whelming sales of 17HMR and know 17HM2.I won't go into the actual ogive style,bt versus flat base or such just yet.For me it is enough that you fine folks are listening.TIA
TTFN
Matt :grin:
Looks like this forum is going to be a winner.
I sure hope that the Nosler guys will give us sub-caliber nuts a listen and add 17 and 20 cal Ballistic Tips to their line. With Ruger, Kimber, Remington, CZ, Savage and others now putting out 20's and 17's of various flavors, it would seem that this would be a major market to supply. I doubt if any pill would compare to the number of 40 gr. .224's that are sold, but there are sure a bunch in the Nosler line that don't generate near the number of sales that a 25 and 30 gr. .172 would garner, and with the new .204 Ruger crying for a good 35 gr. BT pill with a high BC, it would seem like a major hole is in the Nosler line.
I'm not high on boat-tails, as they reduce the baring surface and keep some rifles from being able to stuff 'em into the lands (an absolute necessity on brand X), but anything to keep the BC high, otherwise, is a good move.
Alex
I sure hope that the Nosler guys will give us sub-caliber nuts a listen and add 17 and 20 cal Ballistic Tips to their line. With Ruger, Kimber, Remington, CZ, Savage and others now putting out 20's and 17's of various flavors, it would seem that this would be a major market to supply. I doubt if any pill would compare to the number of 40 gr. .224's that are sold, but there are sure a bunch in the Nosler line that don't generate near the number of sales that a 25 and 30 gr. .172 would garner, and with the new .204 Ruger crying for a good 35 gr. BT pill with a high BC, it would seem like a major hole is in the Nosler line.
I'm not high on boat-tails, as they reduce the baring surface and keep some rifles from being able to stuff 'em into the lands (an absolute necessity on brand X), but anything to keep the BC high, otherwise, is a good move.
Alex
.172" BULLETS -YOU BET WE NEED MORE!
: Most importantly, we need a 25gr. plastic tipped vermin bullet. BT or flat based really doesn't matter, but it must be accurate in a standard 10" twist. The BC could be in the .200 to .215 range, probably, and that would work perfectly for a range of cartridges.
: To build a bullet for the .17rem & HMR's would be difficult without duplicating the Hornaday efforts in their 17gr.Vmax which is too light for the Rem chambering anyway.
: A 20gr. plastic tipped bullet would work, however that weight is presently shared with Hornady already.
: Now, a 25gr. Ballistic Tipp is required - many of us use this weight in the .17AH, .17AckBee and of course, all larger ctgs. at well. Were that weight available in a plastic tipped bullet, many more would use it, rather than the lighter Hornady offering. Their HP in 25gr. is on the wain inpopularity and Hornady has been bomboarded with requests for that bullet weight in a Vmax- you should be first with a Balistic Tip.
: A .205 to .210BC .172" 25gr. Ballistic Tip would be the only bullet I bought for my .17's.
; You have stated you've received thousands of reqests for larger dia. Hunting bullets- Well, it takes thousands of those hunters to go through the bullet numbers of rounds each of us goes through in .17 cal.
: Each request of ours for a .172 bullet is worth thousands of hunter's requests on single bullets. They don't shoot their .300 ultra whatever demon thousands of times a year - as I do with each of my .17's. At best, most HUNTERS use red box bullets for paractise(if they do practise, most don't), and buy 1 box of Noslers a year for their hunting ammo(if they reload). It only takes 1 to 5 shots to fill all your tages, depending on how many you've drawn. I haven't received a draw in 3 years now, so haven't shot off any partitions in that time. IF I get drawn next year, I will use 1 Partition bullet. In the mean time, I still shoot over 2,000 rounds a year from EACH of my .17's.
: Most importantly, we need a 25gr. plastic tipped vermin bullet. BT or flat based really doesn't matter, but it must be accurate in a standard 10" twist. The BC could be in the .200 to .215 range, probably, and that would work perfectly for a range of cartridges.
: To build a bullet for the .17rem & HMR's would be difficult without duplicating the Hornaday efforts in their 17gr.Vmax which is too light for the Rem chambering anyway.
: A 20gr. plastic tipped bullet would work, however that weight is presently shared with Hornady already.
: Now, a 25gr. Ballistic Tipp is required - many of us use this weight in the .17AH, .17AckBee and of course, all larger ctgs. at well. Were that weight available in a plastic tipped bullet, many more would use it, rather than the lighter Hornady offering. Their HP in 25gr. is on the wain inpopularity and Hornady has been bomboarded with requests for that bullet weight in a Vmax- you should be first with a Balistic Tip.
: A .205 to .210BC .172" 25gr. Ballistic Tip would be the only bullet I bought for my .17's.
; You have stated you've received thousands of reqests for larger dia. Hunting bullets- Well, it takes thousands of those hunters to go through the bullet numbers of rounds each of us goes through in .17 cal.
: Each request of ours for a .172 bullet is worth thousands of hunter's requests on single bullets. They don't shoot their .300 ultra whatever demon thousands of times a year - as I do with each of my .17's. At best, most HUNTERS use red box bullets for paractise(if they do practise, most don't), and buy 1 box of Noslers a year for their hunting ammo(if they reload). It only takes 1 to 5 shots to fill all your tages, depending on how many you've drawn. I haven't received a draw in 3 years now, so haven't shot off any partitions in that time. IF I get drawn next year, I will use 1 Partition bullet. In the mean time, I still shoot over 2,000 rounds a year from EACH of my .17's.
I, too, want to thank Nosler for this fine Forum. It would be GREAT if Nosler would begin to offer a 25 gr. and a 30 gr. BT bullet for the .172 caliber crowd. I have used 40 gr., 50 gr., and 55 gr. Nosler BTs for years and really wish I could get this type bullet for my .17 Remington.
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