Nosler 17 Caliber?

[Dan in Va]

It's great to read more and more reasons from other .17 shooters for Nosler to make subcaliber bullets, and I agree with all the posts. Something I haven't really thought about is comparing the volume of large game hunting versus varmint/target bullets shot.

It's SO true that varmint and target guys shoot huge volumes of bullets compared to the once a year woodsmen. We're constantly shooting many more animals, testing loads with new powder lots and different component combinations. We are always trying achieve the minimum size groups and maintain them, where the big gamers are satisfied with minute of deer and sight in once a year.

In addition to all this, we .17 shooters experiment a whole lot with doping the wind. It's not just checking the zero, but figuring out how to shoot in so many different conditions and distances. Imagine the differnce in volume between subcaliber varminters and the average big gamer -- the numbers would be quite impressive. And it's a strong point to consider how many deer hunters it would take to equal the amount of one varminter.

Also, a well designed .17 caliber varmint bullet would be excellent for punching paper. And we all know how the target guys are big time volume shooters! Not only that, a great number of varminters compete in matches. And they practice with the bullets that are used in matches. More bullets are shot in overall practice than just matches themselves.

A cousin is a farm manager and used to kill some 300 groundhogs each year. Of course, he got the long range bug and started competing in 600 and 1000 yard matches. After 3 years in the long range game, he managed to place 7th in the nationals last year. I saw him last week, and he was telling me how surprising it was to see some .17 shooters being competetive with their little pills. I thought for sure it had to be Corbin Shell, but he said it was somebody else and there are more of these guys doing it all the time. Not to claim a .17 bullet is better than the big caliber in matches, but the point is that we have a great passion and delight in shooting with the big boys...maybe we'll always have a point to prove, but we buy a lot of bullets to do it!

Imagine what would happen if Nosler got the jump on the other guys! Varminting...paper punching...it can all be done with the right polymer tipped bullet that has a little boat tail.

dan

 

[Bayou City Boy]

I have shot 17 caliber rifles since the late 1970's. It would be great to have another option such as Nosler for 17 caliber bullets. As others have mentioned, a heavier 17 caliber plastic tipped bullet would be excellent.

- BCB :grin:

 

[Ladobe]

...

 

[dschell]

Thanks Nosler for setting up the site.
I also shoot a 17M4 and would be interested in some 17 Cal NBT.

 

[Cajun Blake]

..... Nosler and this forum's moderators , I too would like to ditto the aforementioned information.

I currently shoot/reload with many of your bullet offerings as my reloading cabinets are lined with quite a few "black and gold" boxes. I even have several older "yellow and white" boxes of the ZIPEDO bullets which shoot bugholes in my custom 6mm Rem. and are reserved as "special" bullets.

I exclusively shoot NBT's in my other custom rifles (22 Dasher, 6BR, 257 Ack Imp, and 280 Ack Imp); however each one of these rifles takes a back seat to my custom .17's when heading to the range or predator/varmint hunting fields. My Cooper 257 AI, and Speedy Gonzalez built 280 AI are FINE rifles, but seldom get shot more than 10 times each per year. They serve 1 purpose - to harvest several deer and wild hogs each hunting season as they are then cleaned and put back into my safe for another 12 months. Of the aforementioned rifles, I honestly shoot less than 50 rounds of NBT's per year.

On the other hand, I own 4 different custom built .17 caliber rifles which are FUN to shoot and I shoot them year round. I have even developed my own cartridge (17 Little Nasty) and built 2 seperate rifles in this chambering. I have well over $10,000 tied up in these 4 rifles, and am serious about my passion for the .17 ! As crazy as this sounds, I can give you a list of 10 people who are as serious as myself, and have the same type of $$$$$ invested in their .17 caliber rifles. These 10 people can also provide you a seperate list of 10 other 17 caliber lovers, and so on, and so on.

You see, it's like the "domino effect" . Once you get started shooting a .17, you're addicted for life, AND 9 times out of 10, you end up building or buying another .17! The average 17 caliber shooter likely has 2-3 rifles or pistols because these guns are inexpensive to shoot and have no recoil. I don't know to many people who on 2-3 .300 WM's because they are fun to shoot. "Seventeen" caliber shooters are comparable to organized Benchrest shooters. HOW ?? They are great people who are always willing to help, AND are extremely LOYAL to the products and brands which cater to our needs. The 25+ year old "taboo" that .17 cals are notorious for barrel fouling and require cleaning every 5 - 8 rounds is a common misconception by those who are "less educated". With the improvement in powders and custom barrels today, the 17 caliber is definitely here for the long run, as more and more people are jumping on the bandwagon.

In review of this new "Forum", I noticed several ?'s posed by Nosler to it's visitors and forum readers. Such the question as "Which AccuBond would you like to see next ?", is certainly a valuable instrument in measuring what type of bullet customers are asking for. However, if you recieve 100 replies to your query, you will most likely recieve 75 different answers all with different bullet calibers and bullet weights (i.e.- .243 cal. 80 grain, 6.5 ca. 107 grain, .308 cal. 168 grain, etc..). Ask this same type question to 100 different .17 caliber shooters, and the consensus will all agree - WE NEED A 25 GR. NBT !!!!!!

I personally shoot in excess of 5,000 .17 caliber bullets each year. This is a drop in the bucket compared to some of my other .17 caliber shooting friends. When I am running low, and need to re-stock, I often order between 500 and 1000 bullets at a time. My hard earned dollars are spent wisely as I am currently supporting your competition, primarily "Big Red". At present , Hornady and Sierra do not offer what we have been requesting for the last 10 years.

With regard to business and economics, this appears to be as simple as "supply and demand". There is a whole lot of demand for a .17 caliber / 25 gr. or 30 gr. BT. Whomever (Nosler, Sierra, Hornady) beats the other one to the punch, will likely gain a huge share in the .17 caliber market place !

For what's it's worth, I do follow the Shooting Industry and keep abreast of who's developing what. Your competiton, Sierra and Hornady are primarily focused on the .20 caliber market since introduction of the .204 Ruger. Which by the way is the first 20 caliber factory rifle offering in more than 3 decades (5mm Remington Magnum). Small calibers are definitely gaining popularity whether it's for squirrel hunting or varmint control. 17 caliber BT's should deserve some SERIOUS consideration by NOSLER. Their is a whole following of dedicated .17 caliber shooters waiting for the first "Moses" to part the Red Sea!!! Wake Up !!

BTW, if you'd like to come by and visit with other 17 cal. enthusiasts, I wlecome you to Jim Saubiers small caliber site. www.saubier.com
Thanks for this forum and allowing my freedom of speech, even if it goes upon deaf ears...

 

[nvreloader]

I would think that Nosler, after designing some of the best bullets the shooting world has to offer,for all the calibers,except those calibers 20 cal and smaller, would like to have a larger slice of the pie.

There is a very large and growing section of small/sub caliber shooters that have sparked a renewed interest in this area. The average sportsman can only use their big game rifles for a very limited amount of time, that leaves the rest of the year that the varmint shooting/hunting takes up the slack, till hunting season rolls around next year.

These sub/small calibers fill the need very nicely, with tons of bullets being used at a wide range of varmints for the great majority of the year.

How many big game rifles are used for the varmint shooting end, few and far between, most are left in the gun lockers when the season ends, and out comes the small calibers to use?

There is one Company(Hornady) that has supported the shooter for years, by listening to the end user of their products, they are on the cutting edge of providing the products that the sportsman want to use and need.

Don't get me wrong, I use and will continue to use Nosler and Hornady Bullets only, which I have since the early 60's, as these two companies have provided the products that I want to use,(not what some desk jockey thinks will sell the best ),but the vast volume of bullets used is by far is for the 22 caliber and smaller.

IMHO, I feel that Nosler is missing the boat by not having sub caliber bullets, with the 17 calibers being the first step for a more complete selection for the sportsman.
"Speeds fine, but accuracy is final".
Don nvreloader

 

[NOSLER]

Once again, this is why we have created this site.

Since we can't be everywhere, and are somewhat distant being on the West Coast, we don't always get to hear people's concearns.

I appreciate your post!

 

[Minnesota Dick]

Well, just to add my 2 cents to this post.

My shooting pardner and myself are retired and make about four trips a year out to South Dakota to shoot p-dogs. Oh, bye the way, we have gave up big game hunting because it is to much work for us old timers.

The calibers that we use are:
1) 243 WINCHESTER 2) 223 Remington 3) 17 Remington

We load all of our own ammo for these calibers. Now which caliber gets the most use is the 17 remington because of the lite recoil and how flat they shoot. Also the 17 caliber allows you to see your hits through the scope even at 16X. Once you start shooting the 17 caliber the other guns just become safe queens and don't get that much use.

We currently use the red tiped 20 gr bullets and use about 5000 each a year shooting at p-dogs and shooting at the range just for fun.

It sure would be nice to have Nosler make a 20 gr or 25 gr bullet for the 17 caliber as we would sure like to try them out and if they are as good as the other caliber bullets that your company makes I am sure that we would be hooked on them.

 

[13Fox]

I sure would like to see some Nosler offerings in the good ol' .17!

I am pretty new to the 17 caliber world, but I waited close to nine years to get in. Finishing school, getting married, moving across the country kept me in a hole that I needed to get out of first. Now I'm in! And that move across country was to put me close to high volume varminting. Used to, the 22 cal rifles were my "go-to" rifles. Now, my addiction to the 17 Ackley Hornet, means it is the only rifle I pick up most times.

A subject that always gave me some concern was the limited availability of 17 caliber bullets. With most other calibers that I shoot, there is a plethora of bullets to choose from. Not so with the 17; there's a few, but not a lot.

I won't pretend to know what bullets would best suit the 17 caliber shooters. But I do know that any new offering would be very welcome; and the more, the better.

Now that I am into the world of 17s, I will get more rifles in this awesome little number. And like the other fellas' suggestions, we varmint humters shoot LOTS of bullets

 

[RME]

Numbers speak volumes so I want to add myself to the list of those who NEED a .17 caliber Ballistic Tip.
Top of the list would be a 25gr boat tail Ballistic Tip. Nosler makes excellent bullets and I shoot BT's in my .22 centerfires exclusively. If you guys can make a .172 BT to the quality and performance level that you currently make the rest of your BT line then you will make so many people happy you would barely believe it.
It's true the .17 Gang shoot large volumes of bullets, probably close to or more than the .22's. With only a single supplier of "production" bullets many shooters are spending considerable money on custom bullets at premium prices, a large portion of that money could be going to Nosler if they were to introduce a quality .172 Ballistic Tip for under $14/100 retail.
I would think that a 25-27 grain bullet would outsell a 30 grain but maybe not by much. There are SO many more .17 caliber rifles in existence than .20 caliber that I would think the .17 should be Noslers priority of the two.
Please make us .17 cal Ballistic Tips, we will love you even more! Call it a "customer appreciation" development project. I (not personally) guarantee that your .17 caliber bullets will not stay in stock gathering dust.

 

[Dan in Va]

The primary reason I've been posting here is that I believe Nosler is able to make bullets of higher quality than the company that had the foresight to pioneer mass production of .17 bullets. With all due respect to the Nosler's innovative history and accomplishments, I it's not easy to understand why the huge success Brand X has had (is having, and will continue to reap) is ignored by Nosler. There are only two major players that haven't come out with a .17 bullet, even though shooters are choosing to and will have to go smaller calibers (due to shrinkage of wide open spaces).

There is a huge void the .17 shooting community is begging to be filled (just reading all these posts is a fair sampling). I haven't talked about this to Brand X because Nosler is my first choice. I know that in time the company that has understoon the .17 market for decades will make such a bullet that we've been discussing.

Just a few months ago, the green tipped bulletsmith conducted a survey of what bullets shooters wanted that have yet to be made. It got a great deal of attention and the results were rightly predicted by the employees that design and shoot their bullets. The two top vote getters were way out in front:

1) 69 gr .224" Blitz King
2) 25 gr .172" Blitz King


There is now another opportunity to make more bullet history, Nosler style. Or, if history repeats itself, there will be a complete line of mediocre quality red tipped bullets.

IMHO, we .17 shooters would be better off if the better company would do its business in the pot, istead of just staying off it.

dan

 

[Cajun Blake]

Dan,

I certainly concur with your post above as it is hard to beat a NBT when looking for an accurate hunting/varminting bullet. BTW, I sent you a pvt. e-mail and you should be recieiving the Starke RPVB 17 cal / 25 gr bullets in a few days. Clint's 17/25 bullets shot bughole size groups in practically every 17 caliber rifle which they were loaded for.

Walt (Berger) has a good selection of 17 cal bullets, and his 25 gr. Match are hard to beat for accuracy, yet they lack the explosiveness that varmint hunters are looking for.

If Nosler is listening and ever decides to go into production, the perfect combination would be Clint's 25 gr RPVB design (FB, ogive, etc....) with a polymer tip. Based upon Nosler's high standing reputation, and THE bullet which seems to be a consensus among previous posters, a 17/25 NBT would soon become everyone's new bullet of choice !

 

[Rich in VA]

Nosler's great name and great products coupled with a new 17 cal offering would be hard to beat. I can't see this being anything but a winner for all involved.

Varmint shooters shoot more in one range sessiong than most deer hunters do in several years.

As for myself, I would like to see several different weights, as I tend to lean towards the lighter stuff.

Subconciously, I think people tend to shy away from companies that don't offer a full line of products. I know that I used to shoot lots of Nosler's, even before the polymer tips came out (that'll age me!!). But since Nosler doesn't offer 17's, I think I gravitated away. Anyone else get this feeling?

Rich in VA

 

[Bill D.]

I read with quite a bit of interest Nosler's reply as to why .17 cal. is low on their priority list. I jumped into the .17 fray during the 80's when Remington first introduced the M-700 BDL in .17 Remington. My main purpose for the purchase of this rifle and caliber was to have a very lethal cartridge to use on valuable furbearing animals that would not do damage to the pelt. It proved to be the perfect cartridge to use on bobcats and coyotes but left a little to be desired on fox and raccoons because of very limited bullet selection. It also turned out to be an excellent choice for prairie dogs with 300 yard accuracy. Over the years I have watched the interest in .17 caliber grow expecially with the super popular .17 MKIV. It was so nice to see manufacturers such as Berger, Starke, Hornady, etc. start offering .17 fans more choices. I have always been mystified why big companies like Nosler and Sierra just stood by while the parade marched on and now has reached epedemic proportions with the intro of the rimfires. People like me that have shot a train load of Nosler .224 BT's would dearly love to see a Nosler .17 BT in 25 gr. weight as a start. I can say without any doubt, they would not be able to stay up with the demand.......a market survey would easily confirm what I say. If Nosler is so busy meeting the demand for their present products, they must be making pretty decent money for investment......if they want to make even more money, give the thousands of .17 fans another reason to buy Nosler bullets! You are losing money to your competition and depriving your devoted customers of some real tack driving accuracy and fun.

 

[Dan in Va]

Blake - I'll check e-mail when I get home frome work tonight. Your check for the Starke pills went in the mail on Saturday, so please holler if it's not in your box soon. Yes, I had the same relsults with Bergers penetrating more (passing throught groundhogs at 100 and 200 yards), while it's been rare for a Starke to exit. Walt was interested in this and I sent him a few Starke so he can compare the meplat with his won match and MEF styles. Thanks so much for everything!

Bill D - Thanks for your insight into this situation. I've alwys enjoyed your informative posts, and also the feature Hornady on their website.

dan

 

[Gary Fry]

I will add my name to the list of shooters who would like additional selection in the .17 bullet line. I currently shoot (5) and reload for (4) .17 caliber guns: .17 AH Contender carbine, .17 AH Contender pistol, .17 Rem 700 BDL, .17 AH Cooper varminter and a .17 HMR Contender carbine. As you can tell, I really like the .17 AH!

I would really like to see a ballistic tip bullet in the 22 to 27 grain weight range - a boat tail design would be a big bonus. The .17's seem poised for a big increase in popularity and I believe Nosler could fill a glaring hole in the selection available. Nosler's reputation should give them instant credibility and a running start in the .17 caliber arena.

 

[Cajun Blake]

Obviously the WANT and NEED for a 17 caliber bullet has been spoken for by the people. This topic of 17 caliber bullets is easily the 2nd most frequented thread next to "accubonds".

However as previously stated in earlier posts, the "wish lists" for AccuBond bullets covers everything from .22 caliber to .416 caliber. Such a wide diversity of calibers, and that doesn't even include the varying amount of weights people have expressed. Truly inconceivable to make everyone happy based on the total number of AccuBond caliber/weight possibilities.

This brings me to the point which has been lobbied by all the aforementioned posters. All we want is a 25 or 30 gr. 17 caliber BT !! The small caliber phenomenom (17's and 20's) is here to stay as the hand-writing is all over the wall, and countless subscription magazines. Have you heard or read about the 17 HMR , 17 Mk2, and Ruger 204 yet ?? Why not take advantage of this established market and get your peice of the pie ??

Your primary competition (Sierra and Hornady) have already jumped on the small caliber bandwagon and are producing 20 caliber pills. Hornady remains "king of the throne" with the factory 17 caliber bullets, and Sierra has made public their lack of desire to test the waters.

Nosler, the ball is in your court. No better time than now for the taking. You can either join in on the game , or sit in the stands and watch Big Red (Hornady) dominate the market and cater to our bullet needs. With that being said, I have a few questions on behalf of 17 caliber shooters worldwide:


(1) Where do 17 caliber bullets stand on your current and future priority list ?

(2) Do you foresee that Nosler will ever produce a 17 caliber bullet(s) ?

......If YES, approximate time frame before production, and bullets may be made available to the public .... 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, ?? years ?


Your time and cooperation is greatly appreciated, Thanks, Blake Stevens ... Cajun Blake <*)))>{

 

[Silverfox]

Nosler Reps-- I sure hope you have read these posts and I am especially interested in reading your response the Cajun Blake's enumerated questions at the bottom of his post.

I think you owe it to your loyal customers who own .17 or .20 caliber rifles and would really like to buy your bullets for these small caliber rifles just like they do for the other caliber rifles they have. I can't stress enough the fact that most of us who shoot the .17 and/or .20 caliber rifles don't just buy one box of 100 bullets every two or three years, we buy 500 or a 1,000 or more bullets at a time and many of us shoot a thousand or more bullets per year. I think it is time to get your company moving into the realm of the .17 and .20 caliber bullets and make your customers happy; not to mention make you rich :lol:

 

[Bayou City Boy]

Hello!!!!

Is anyone listening????

Nosler: Sure hope you pay attention to all the responses this thread has created. As others have stated, 17 shooters typically don't just shoot a few rounds each year - we shoot literally hundreds or thousands per year.

Why not buy your accountants a couple of 17 caliber rifles to shot over their lunch break so they can see how much fun the 17 calibers are? Maybe after they're hooked, they'll want to make bullets for 'em.

PS - You still have time to get into the 20 caliber market also. You'll only start out in 4th place behind Hornady, Berger, and now Sierra. If you make a good bullet, folks will buy them.

Hope you're still listening and not just hoping this thread evaporates at some point. - BCB :grin:

 

[Silverfox]

his questions or, like he said, are you just hoping this thread goes away? Bayou City Boy asked several questions which I would like to see you answer. Otherwise, I take it you are just fluffing us off and never intended on coming to the table with any .17 caliber bullets.