Primers "pushed back" on super tested Load

[jagermeister]

Caliber : 222 Rem.
Cases : Norma, resized 6 times and annealed for the first time... :?

Load tested over and over and never had this issue.
Same bullets, same powder (and same lot), same primers, same reloading tecnique, same rifle, same ....everything. The only difference is that brass was annealed (could it be the problem ?).

Practically, when I extract the fired case from the chamber, it appears that primers are pushed back about 0,012".
Here it is (black marked ones) :

No other issues.

Accuracy is not bad either (100 meter - 5 shots - see picture) :



What do you Guys think ?

TY
J

 

[dubyam]

Almost looks like a headspace issue post-annealing? Seems like maybe softening the shoulder allowed the die to work it without as much springback? Just guessing, though. For sure, check the case wall interior for potential separation.

 

[kraky1]

Absolutely nailed it in my book. I often find after annealing that I need to tweak my dies just a bit or I will see more headspace after sizing....that softer shoulder pushes back and there is no spring back.
From that point in my theory I'll say that is a nice mild to medium load. The firing pin drives you case forward in the chamber....it is a mild load and grips the chamber walls but does not stretch the brass back to the bolt face for reseating of the primer.
Anyone with a factory 3030 sees this phenominin over and over again with factory ammo on the first go around with those nice moderate pressure loads.
You have nothing to worry about...but check the headspacing after your next attempt at annealing.

 

[skidmark]

The group looks great.
What method did you use to anneal
you cases ?

 

[jagermeister]

The group looks great.
What method did you use to anneal
you cases ?

Thanks.......
A buddy of mine has done it for me.
He's used induction heating.

Inviato dal mio GS 1150

 

[skidmark]

I always wanted a Vertex machine when I first saw one used
but could'nt justify the 500$. I have plenty of new .340 brass
and .308 I keep telling myself. I have not seen an induction type machine
in person but would like to know more about them.
I could see the shoulders being soft and to much headspace I would check
one you just loaded against a fired case with a headspace tool to make sure
though. Again its a great group your doing something right.

 

[jagermeister]

Updates....

I have done more testing, with different brass.....same results

I definitely think the problem is the excessive headspace, although it does not seem to affect accuracy too much....

Can you Guys tell me the exact procedure to adjust (read: refine :mrgreen: ) my FL resizing Die to improve this issue ?

I use Redding Full Length "standard" Dies.

Thank you for your help ! :wink:

 

[Mud]

Did you measure the head space before and after? Also how far are you pushing the shoulders back?

 

[kraky1]

Jager....this is EXACTLY WHY everyone thats actively reloading needs a tool like the hornady headspace measuring kit. This is one of THE BEST $35 I've spent on tools. It will tell you the headspace before and after sizing.
I made the same mistake as you got going the other night by being a bit "lazy" sizing some annealed brass that pushed back .005" more than I wanted it to in my redding body die. Luckily I thought to check after just sizing 3 cases.
I now have all my dies marked with a matching mark on the lock ring and the threads of the dies. A movement about 1/4" appart either way corrects headspace about .004". I can dial in the die to do more resizing on work hardened brass that springs back....or I can dial it off for working with freshly annealed.
I'll buy you a 12 pack if you don't agree this tool is one of the best $$$$ you've invested!

 

[dubyam]

The "exact procedure" is pretty simple. Here's my version, others will differ slightly:

1. If you've bought a headspace gauge set, start by measuring the length from casehead to shoulder of several pieces of fired brass (not yet resized), using the proper bushing. Write this length down.
2. Screw your FL Size die into your press but leave it a few turns short of seated against the lock ring.
3. Take one piece of fired brass, lubed, and run it up into the die until the ram hits the top of the stroke.
4. Lower the ram and check for how much of the neck is sized on that piece of brass.
5. Screw in the sizing die a little at a time until the neck is fully sized, but the shoulder is left untouched. It is very important not to touch the shoulder. Just size right to the bottom of the neck but not touching the shoulder. This is important.
6. Wipe this piece of brass to remove the lube, and carefully measure the casehead to shoulder length (headspace dimension). It is likely longer by a few thousandths than the original measurement on fired brass. This is because as the case body is squeezed by the die, the shoulder pushes forward, but you've set your die not to push it back any.
7. Carefully attempt to chamber this piece of brass in your rifle. If the brass will chamber, measure the shoulder length again to confirm it is within .002-.003" of the fired brass. I suspect it won't chamber fully, though, and you'll want to go to the next step.
8. If it won't chamber fully, turn your sizing die in 1/4 turn and resize the case (don't forget to lube it again!).
9. Measure the case headspace length. Your goal here is to get the case sized to a headspace length of .002" shorter than the original "fired brass" headspace length you measured at the start of this exercise. You should now know roughly how much "bump" you will get for 1/4 turn of the die, and can adjust the die accordingly. I'd recommend adjusting less than you think you need, and sizing and measuring, then fine tuning the adjustment the last bit of the way. It's impossible to lengthen the headspace length once you've pushed the shoulder back too far.
10. Once you get the brass sized to .002" shorter in headspace length than fired brass, try chambering it. It should work fine, with a firm, but not heavily resistive feel to closing the bolt.

If you don't have the tool, and just cannot spare the $35 to buy it, you can just use your rifle chamber as a gauge, and size the brass a little, check the fit, size a little, check the fit, and so forth until you're done.

Once you get the sizing die properly set, lock it down, and for that batch of brass, you should not have to readjust much if any at all. The brass won't be interchangeable between two different rifles, however, so keep that in mind.

 

[jagermeister]

Thanks very much for all of your replies Guys.

Nobody would try this path ? :

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-e ... 39926.aspx


I am all ears :mrgreen:

 

[dubyam]

They work, as long as the length you need is one of the options of added shellholder thickness. Ive always believed it easier to just adjust the die and lock the lock ring.

 

[jimbires]

I use the Redding comp shellholder sets . I think they are the best thing since sliced bread . once you determine the shellholder needed setting up the die is as simple as snugging it against the shellholder . the brass will always be sized to the same dimension using these shellholder sets . It would be hard to adjust a sizing die to the thousandth every time . the shellholders come in .002 " increments , which I feel is close enough . I like to bump my shoulders back .002 . with these shellholders I'm able to get .002 or .003 . I do anneal my brass every other time to keep my shoulder bump consistent . the guys are correct , as the brass hardens the headspace will change unless the die is adjusted or the brass softened by annealing .

 

[kraky1]

I've got the redding shellholder kit and I've also got the skips shims kit.
They can work...or they can work with difficulty.
If you have a cartridge/die scenario where camming over is involved I found the shellholders and shims didn't give me the consistancy I wanted.
I have two shaved shellholders I use nowadays so that the die never hits the shellholder. One is for magnum and one for normal 308 type case heads. Both are shaved down about .015-.020". I like not getting camming over involved with my resizing cause it gives me more "feel". I can often feel the shoulder bump...especially with a redding body die.
And after fidding with the redding shellholders and shims for a number of years I've come to believe moving the ring ever so slightly works best for me. Moving the index marks seems pretty quick and accurate.
All that said....I've been known to make switches in ideas at the drop of a hat!

 

[elkeater2]

You probably have a digital caliper. I have taken measurements of fired and resized cases by finding a regular socket that will ride on the 'datum line' (for our purposes about 1/2 way up the case shoulder) without the case neck touching bottom on the inside. I use 3/8" drive, but don't recall the socket size for .222 or .223. It helps if the socket has a flat base or close to it. I actually ground one off a little. So you go slowly and measure the case with the socket on top, noting evenness and squareness, and holding the combo on the same place on your caliper jaws. 2-3 times just to make sure you're being consistent. Write that one down, and measure the others same way. You will know if your cases are .002" longer, the same, .004" shorter, or whatever. I do it all the time. The Hornady tool accomplishes the same thing with a little more ease.