Questions on Weighing Brass

[NYDAN]

I have never weighed and sorted brass since I never had more than one or two lots from the same manufacturer and I didn't want to go to the trouble. But now, with some of my more recent groups, I am thinking it may make a difference going forward.

The object of weighing and sorting brass is to group together brass with the same internal volume, and thus improve consistency, right?

When do you weigh your brass? I assume it would be after it has been deprimed, resized, trimmed to length, and cleaned. Is that correct? Once weighed, how much variation do you allow in one group? +/- how many grains?

Sometimes with new brass, it isn't even to trim length after the first firing. So, it would naturally weigh less. How do you take that into account? Shoot short brass as fouling shots until it is long enough to trim? Then weigh and sort it?

Dan

 

[Partisan]

"The object of weighing and sorting brass is to group together brass with the same internal volume, and thus improve consistency, right?"

Yes. Chronograph readings will show a marked reduction in Shot-to-Shot Velocity variation. This does NOT necessarily translate to improved group sizes but is a step getting there.

I normally try to group cases into lots +/- 1/2 grain. With some brass brands and lots this can be a challenge to get 20 rnds out of 50. You will also find a marked difference in average weight between brands. E.G. I just recently bought 50 rnds of Norma 243 brass. It is 19 Grains heavier than a lot of 50 Hornady brass I have and has 1/2 the Standard Deviation. Chrono readings for the same powder charge were 85 fps higher with the Norma and 1/10 as much variance in velocity as the unsorted Hornady brass.

For Hunting I only use brass fired at least once anyway for chamber fit. You can sort anytime even before trimming although even trimming will show less variance. Trimming doesn't remove material contributing to internal volume. The idea is to get a particular lot of ammo (how ever many rnds you decide you need) consistent.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I weigh brass after its fully prepped and ready to load.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[NYDAN]

Guys, thanks for the feedback. It is nice to have people to talk to about this stuff. It is great to get confirmation or helpful critiques from others.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I'll be a voice of dissent--I sort brass by neck thickness only. If using multiple boxes of brass (i.e. Nosler packages brass in boxes of 50, and I prefer units of 100), I'll weigh brass between boxes to make sure it's not a huge variance. Otherwise I don't weigh brass.

And I stopped cleaning out primer pockets, and stopped cleaning brass (other than wiping the neck down with my shooting gloves), and only adjust powder by 0.5 or 1.0 grains when doing load development...

My groups have gotten better.

However, I also use a concentricity gauge to determine the best way to resize brass. I sort brass by neck thickness variation. I also find seating depth adjustment to make a huge difference.

 

[waveslayer]

No need to weigh brass. It is a waste of time. Just uniform the necks and length as well as the primer pockets... not the flash hole and you will be fine!

 

[Horsethief]

I weigh the new, unprimed brass, write the weight on the side of the case with a fine point Sharpie, then put it in a MTM case from the heaviest to the lightest to keep it all segregated. It is common to have two or three groups of brass the same weight or a +/- .3 grain range. Does it all help with accuracy? Maybe, in the sense that a faster bullet from a heavier case might shoot flatter than one with less velocity from a lighter case. If you sort your brass and shoot the cartridges closest to each other then your chronographed speeds will be closer due to the brass capacity being the same or nearly the same with each cartridge.
Don't forget to check you bullet weight now and then. There care be more weight variety than you think.

 

[waveslayer]

I have never weighed and sorted brass since I never had more than one or two lots from the same manufacturer and I didn't want to go to the trouble. But now, with some of my more recent groups, I am thinking it may make a difference going forward.

The object of weighing and sorting brass is to group together brass with the same internal volume, and thus improve consistency, right?

When do you weigh your brass? I assume it would be after it has been deprimed, resized, trimmed to length, and cleaned. Is that correct? Once weighed, how much variation do you allow in one group? +/- how many grains?

Sometimes with new brass, it isn't even to trim length after the first firing. So, it would naturally weigh less. How do you take that into account? Shoot short brass as fouling shots until it is long enough to trim? Then weigh and sort it?

Dan

Don't bother weighing brass it will not reduce your group sizes. More importantly is the neck tension. Spend your time doing that

 

[ColColt]

I got curious about brass weight just last week and had never delved into it before. In light of the .222 I thought it might be interesting. I use Lapua brass with the .222 and it's about as good as it gets.

I also have a 243 and have both new Winchester and Norma brass. The weight differential between those two average, out of weighing ten cases each, 1.7 gr for the Winchester and 1.5 gr for the Norma, weighing ten cases each. The average for Winchester was 161.1 gr and Norma averaged 169.7 gr. That didn't come as a surprise.

 

[NYDAN]

Waveslayer,

I don't know how to adjust or measure neck tension. My RCBS resizing die resizes the neck and then the expander ball expands it. What else can I do with that die? I have already polished the expander ball. How do you measure neck tension?

 

[ColColt]

For one thing you can measure the expander ball. If it's say, .241", you know you'll have .002" neck tension if you're using .243" bullets for the 243 Winchester.

 

[Sas874runner]

http://24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html

Nydan. I have done lots of research on sorting brass by weight and water overflow capacity sorting bullets by weight. Etc. And have come to the conclusion unless you are bench rest shooting for every .001"

1" you can gain its really not worth it. I have found a good powder scale measuring with a comparator and concentricity gauge made all the difference in the world for my consistency. Also annealing can play a big role. All of my factory rifles are sub moa and shoot as consistent as I can shoot them.

This was an article Vince had posted for me a while back. Pertaining to the same thoughts. He put it best ad necessary vs busy body work for hunting rifles. This was a lengthy article but very good info.

 

[Darkhorse]

Nydan, My philosophy that works for me is; It's a pursuit of perfection, therefore never to be achieved but perhaps, occasionally approached.
So in that pursuit I do everything possible within my modest means to ensure every case is as uniform and concentric as the next one.
Of course, I didn't always do so but I am now retired and have the the time and as a result my groups have gotten tighter. I will be glad to post a couple of examples of groups fired with both prepped and unprepped brass if you wish.
My cases are all trimmed to length, the primer is removed, then all cases are annealed, then resized without using the expander (the primer is removed in a separate operation), using a dowel or drill wrapped in steel wool I polish the inside of the case neck to remove old ash, then the case neck is expanded in it's own separate operation, the primer pocket is uniformed then deburred inside and out, cases are trimmed to length, then I turn the case necks to 85% cleanup and deburr and chamfer the case neck.
All these little steps are not done to add difficulty, I have specific reasons for doing each.
Next I weigh the cases by weighing one and writing the weight down. All subsequent cases that weigh within 1/2 +/- gr. goes in one container, those over in another and those under in another. When I'm done I'll have several batches saved in ziplock bags with the weights written on the bag. These will stay together for their life cycle.
When loading for accuracy I use these. And for hunting if long accurate shots might be needed. If I am just loading to plink I'll use separate cases with a min. of prep, basically just resizing and loading.
Sure, this is a LOT of trouble and many won't take the time. But to me it is not a lot of trouble in pursuit of braggin size groups. And some rifles may not need this level of hand loading prep to shoot good groups, but mine do.

P.S. I hope this makes some sense as I have just returned home from the Hospital with a brand new Total Knee Replacement and I'm not sure yet how all this new medicine is agreeing with me.

 

[Dr. Vette]

For one thing you can measure the expander ball. If it's say, .241", you know you'll have .002" neck tension if you're using .243" bullets for the 243 Winchester.

Yes and no.

The .002" is an example of how we commonly refer to neck tension as reloaders, but really it's a misnomer. True tension would have to be measured by a gauge, such as a strain gauge, and that's not what reloaders are doing. The units of measurement would also be entirely different, and not measured in inches (length). It would also be affected by a variety of factors such as the brass thickness and elasticity. However, the term has been used this way for so long that I don't think it will ever be corrected.

Dan, I hope that helps a bit.

 

[257 Ackley]

Great topic and ideas from those responding. My limited experience with competitive reloading (3 years) has taught me quite a bit on the importance of steps to make an accurate load for LR target shooting. Many of the processes used by others add up to an accurate load. Most of us that load for hunting will never need the accuracy of benchrest shooters, but some of us are OCD (or anal enough) to try and make that one-hole load to brag about.

The beginning of a good-great load seems to start with consistency in the reloading process. If every case is run through the press the same way, if concentricity is within .002 on each case after sizing, if neck tension is the same on every bullet, if primer pockets and flash holes are all the same, if the meplate is the same on every bullet tip, if, if , if...

I do weigh my competition brass (Lapua) into groups with a variance of no more than .3 of a grain (IE...126.0 - 126.3 grains for 6BR brass). Does it matter...maybe if my head tells me it will make a difference. I shot a 200-15X at 600 yards last night with brass that weighed from 126.7 - 127.5 and has been fired 5 times.

To find out if you are really making accurate ammunition, don't think a 100 yard target will tell you anything. You will only start to find out if you have great long range loads after you get past 300 yards. Once a good 100 yard load is found, it is straight to 300 yards to do ladder tests with incremental seating depths and powder charges to verify what 100 yards tells me. Many times I find the best 100 yard group isn't the best 300 yard + load.

We all want to make that perfect, accurate load, whether target shooting or hunting, but than the wind comes along and sends us 6 inches off where we wanted to be anyhow :roll: :lol:

 

[ColColt]

Unfortunately I'm sort or stymied at our range in that the maximum range is 200 yards. Target frames are set up at 50, 100, and 200 yards. There is another 1000 yard range but that's primarily reserved for CMP competition and muzzle loaders. At the bench range 200 yards is it. Of course, when I get a .325" group at 100 yards I'm ecstatic and go home smiling!

 

[257 Ackley]

I have never weighed and sorted brass since I never had more than one or two lots from the same manufacturer and I didn't want to go to the trouble. But now, with some of my more recent groups, I am thinking it may make a difference going forward.

The object of weighing and sorting brass is to group together brass with the same internal volume, and thus improve consistency, right?

When do you weigh your brass? I assume it would be after it has been deprimed, resized, trimmed to length, and cleaned. Is that correct? Once weighed, how much variation do you allow in one group? +/- how many grains?

Sometimes with new brass, it isn't even to trim length after the first firing. So, it would naturally weigh less. How do you take that into account? Shoot short brass as fouling shots until it is long enough to trim? Then weigh and sort it?

Dan

I weigh new brass after it has been fully prepped prior to the first firing. That means necks turned, flasholes deburred, primer pockets squared and all necks trimmed to the same length. If I am making a wildcat cartridge (6BR-6BRX) the sorting is done after the fireforming is done. Everyone has their process that works for them...find one that works for you and stick with it.

 

[257 Ackley]

Unfortunately I'm sort or stymied at our range in that the maximum range is 200 yards. Target frames are set up at 50, 100, and 200 yards. There is another 1000 yard range but that's primarily reserved for CMP competition and muzzle loaders. At the bench range 200 yards is it. Of course, when I get a .325" group at 100 yards I'm ecstatic and go home smiling!

If you are talking about a hunting rifle with that size of a group, you should feel good knowing you have made a load that will work well for most hunting situations. It is when you get to the long range distances that you don't really know what that .25 moa group will do. Most of my hunting rifles are .5-1.0 moa out to 300 yards. The only critter I have shot further than that over the last few years was one elk and piles of p-dogs, so I'm not too worried whether the rifles can shoot .5 moa at 1000 yards. It is more about reading wind than shooting bug-holes at that point.

 

[ColColt]

That was a typical group with the Sako Vixen .222. It can do better, I can't...not consistently. I've gotten groups most always under 3/4" with the Savage .243 and with that I'm content. It can do better as it's happened but, it's more consistent than I am.

Wind? I can no more read the wind than I can read Hebrew. I watch the "red ribbons" someone tacked up at the 100 and 200 yard target frames and if they're blowing horizontally, I wait till they settle down. Other than that, that's about all I can read of the wind.

 

[Darkhorse]

My local range is maxed out at 100 yds. So, being the majority of my load development is done at 100 yards I strive for the tightest group possible with my target load at that distance.
Most of my animals are taken inside of 100 yds. but I have taken several beyond 400 and so far everything has worked out. I just figure the closer to center each round hits at 100, the better chance I have of one connecting farther out.
I do have access to longer ranges at my in in-laws cattle ranch but no bench. Before a western trip I will shoot there off the hood of my truck and from position several times before the trip. So I'm not going and taking those long shots totally blind. Unfortunately due to the terrain about 150 yds. is the limit at my place.
I am building a elevated box stand on our powerline and will incorporate a solid bench type rest of some sort. I have shots there up to 450 yards. When completed that will serve as my long distance range.
I had a career with the Air Force as a Toolmaker and in Optical Tooling alignment and calibration. So to say I am OCD about perfection in my handloading is putting it mildly. Sometimes I feel like an old wizard hunched over the bench in the night, poring over methods to shave another few thousandth's off the group. That is why I have broken some operations down into extra steps.