Quick sizing question

[wisconsinteacher]

I got some virgin brass that was primed and loaded. The seller pulled the bullets and then shipped the brass to me. What would you do to keep them primed and to reset the neck tension so it is not to loose?

 

[DrMike]

You can pull the decapping pin if you want the ball to draw through the neck. Otherwise, just pull the decapping assembly and use the die alone to size the neck. This is where a collet die works well.

 

[Guy Miner]

I would just use my neck sizing dies.

No expansion ball involved. No decapper need be involved either.

 

[DrMike]

I would just use my neck sizing dies.

No expansion ball involved. No decapper need be involved either.

Better suggestion yet.

 

[rick smith]

Busking neck die or collet die would be your best bet. Not knowing how much neck tension the die alone would do to the neck, I would leave the expander in place, use a dry lube in the neck. Rick.

 

[woods]

First of all you could check to see if bullets seated into the necks just as they are - are too loose. Neck brass has "springback" and the diameter of the inside of the necks will be less than the diameter of the bullets pulled.

New brass has less springback than work hardened brass so you may only get an ID of .001" less than the bullet diameter. If the brass had been fired then it would be closer to .002". Even so, the typical ID left after sizing with a Lee Collet mandrel that comes with the die is .001". That is often enough to hold the bullet for most applications except autos or heavy recoil calibers.

If you have a set of pin gauges you can check the ID and see what you have. If you don't then just trying inserting a bullet into the neck and see if you can do it by hand. If you can't then you could just seat new bullets without sizing and fireform

 

[Oldtrader3]

First of all you could check to see if bullets seated into the necks just as they are - are too loose. Neck brass has "springback" and the diameter of the inside of the necks will be less than the diameter of the bullets pulled.

New brass has less springback than work hardened brass so you may only get an ID of .001" less than the bullet diameter. If the brass had been fired then it would be closer to .002". Even so, the typical ID left after sizing with a Lee Collet mandrel that comes with the die is .001". That is often enough to hold the bullet for most applications except autos or heavy recoil calibers.

If you have a set of pin gauges you can check the ID and see what you have. If you don't then just trying inserting a bullet into the neck and see if you can do it by hand. If you can't then you could just seat new bullets without sizing and fireform

Woods: Springback on older, harder brass is LESS SPRINGBACK than new brass because of molecule proximity of workhardened brass and nuclear electron negative charge pushback. These issues have already been minimized on older brass and it will not spring back as much because it has higher tensile strength and molecular pushback has less effect! If you are going to be an "expert" you might try learning the facts first!

 

[Wincheringen]

I would see if they will hold a bullet now, then worry about sizing them down. You really don't need a lot of neck tension.

 

[kraky]

Regarding spring back that was quite a scientific lecture. All I can add is that ALL my experience indicates far LESS spring back on new or annealed brass.
I always have to raise my sizing die after annealing or the shoulders push down and stay there. On work hardened brass the opposite is the case...i have lower the sizing die. I certainly cant give a scientific answer why...I just know it happens every time.
I can also add that just like woods...the likelyhood of reseating bullets into fresh brass has always been more successful on new or freshly annealed brass....but...again can't give a scientific explanation.

 

[woods]

kraky, Oldtoddler has never let facts get in the way of his bad attitude. Before I have proved him to be totally wrong and he just gets juvenile and starts name calling.

Work hardened brass has MORE springback. It has been discussed and shown many times on many forums. A few years ago I researched it and found articles written by knowledgeable writers/reloaders that said this but I don't know if I could still find them.

Like you I have experience and have measured what little springback there is and it always shows more springback on work hardened brass. I have also done tests on reseating bullets into necks where the bullets were just pulled out of.

But the bully of Nosler Reloading Forums has appeared so let the vitriol begin.

 

[woods]

Well at least I don't feel lonely since EVERYONE except YOU knows that work hardened brass has more springback than new or annealed brass

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?714 ... pring-back

Hear me out here Russell

Picture to hunks of metal formed into a "spring." One is made of hard spring steel and the other is made of lead.

Which one springs back better?

Old workhardened brass is "spring steel."

New or annealed brass is "lead."

I will often fire a case 50 times without annealing, IME springback INCREASES with hardness....

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?714 ... pring-back

Right. The yield stress increases as the material work hardens, while its elasticity remains constant, which means that the strain to yield increases. That's why you may, as the brass is fired and resized over and over, need to go to a smaller bushing to get the neck to hold a bullet. The work hardened neck springs out to a larger diameter after sizing than the annealed neck.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... t-question

Yes, brass will spring back and the more it is worked the more you will have.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thread ... pring-back

Annealed cartridge brass?? Probably no spring back at all since it's dead soft.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index. ... =3754050.0

In theory softer brass should spring back less, and as it work hardens it will spring back more.

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hi ... stion.html

I don't know what's at work but hardend brass has more spring back than soft brass.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Squeeze the neck of the used, but un-annealed case. Note the pressure required. Also note that when the pressure is released, the case neck springs back to its original shape.

Squeeze the neck of the factory fresh case. Once again note that the case neck springs back to its original shape, and that it takes slightly less pressure to deform it than the un-annealed case.

Now, squeeze the annealed case. The pressure to deform it is markedly less and when it is released, the case mouth remains deformed--no spring.

The saying comes to mind

"I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you"

Like the thread where you insisted that seating bullets deeper increased pressure and velocity. LOL :lol:

PS this was just a quick search, I can find more if you want. But I suspect that God himself could tell you and it wouldn't matter, cause YOU know better

 

[Oldtrader3]

All other things being equal, diminishing case capacity raises pressure with the same propellant load. You are incorrect on that one!

Taka a .308 case and open it up to .338 (i.e. a .308 to .338 Federal). Form it once to .338, it will springback to .335. Form it three times to .338 and it will stay at .337 because you are exceeding the material's elastic stress limit by a sufficient amount that will cause it to take a permanent set with less springback. Do the operation three times and it will exceed the elastic limit sufficiently to take a permanent deformation (or set) to .337 diameter.

Now go away, I am tired!

 

[elkeater2]

wisconsinteacher - nice job waking the hibernators! Back to your question ( :shock: shock face!!) - you won't know until you try the bullets you'd like to use. There IS some variation in bullet diameters ( :shock: shock face #2 !) which you can possibly take advantage of if you want to just get them loaded.
Most of us are keen on economizing these days, and so I can see where a guy would like to take this brass and make loads that can be duplicated easily (or come close) when reloading. Seating bullets into cases that had bullets pulled makes a guy think the lower neck tension will result in way different results than you'd get with the same load in a freshly resized case. I don't know if you have collet or bushing dies as suggested, but that is the easiest and best way to go because you will be seating with the same neck tension ( the physics of the molecular relationships notwithstanding :shock - that you will use when reloading. Using a standard neck sizing die without decapper but with expander accomplishes much the same thing. Personally, I'd be tempted just to FL size the brass, punch out the primers, and use new primers as well. Then you won't be dealing with primer variations when reloading either. I run virgin brass through sizing anyway.

I also reverse the bullets and push them into the case mouth point first as sort of a poor man's feeler gauge. You do get a good visual on what's going on because the bullet will change depth obviously with only a slight change in neck ID. Do the same with your own resized brass and fired brass and you will readily see what I mean. VLD type bullets work well for this because of their slow taper - again this is just to get a visual on how much the ID differences are, you can even use a slightly larger caliber bullet.

Summary: It's virgin brass to you, so I suggest taking advantage of that by making load development and reloading with economy the focus. To do that, deprime, resize, and prime. The dumped primers are the cheap part of the equation in the long run.
EE2

 

[big rifle man]

Don't want to upset the applecart but "fire a case 50 times without annealing?". I need his formula. As far as springback is concerned I would have to agree with Charlie. Without getting into the technical aspects (which would open up a can of worms) I find that after pulling bullets neck tension does change (and internal neck diameter changes) enough so that a corrective remedy is needed. There's a couple of different ways to do this and that has been accurately expressed by both Doc and Guy. I have on a number of occasions tried resizing work hardened brass and have found more than my share of neck splits. (The molecular structure of the brass changes for the worse.)

 

[salmonchaser]

That stirred the pot a little; I would neck size, reprime and go shoot.

 

[woods]

Don't want to upset the applecart but "fire a case 50 times without annealing?". I need his formula. As far as springback is concerned I would have to agree with Charlie. Without getting into the technical aspects (which would open up a can of worms) I find that after pulling bullets neck tension does change (and internal neck diameter changes) enough so that a corrective remedy is needed. There's a couple of different ways to do this and that has been accurately expressed by both Doc and Guy. I have on a number of occasions tried resizing work hardened brass and have found more than my share of neck splits. (The molecular structure of the brass changes for the worse.)

Since that quote of 50 times came from a benchrest forum his formula would more than likely be a "fitted" neck (no sizing needed after firing) or a very low chamber neck clearance on the order of .001" which would lead to almost no work hardening after a certain point.

You can certainly agree with Oldtoddler and disagree with me, kraky and the other reloaders on benchrest, 6mmbr, sniperhide, LRH et. al. about his statement

Woods: Springback on older, harder brass is LESS SPRINGBACK than new brass

makes no difference to me. It would be nice if you had some corroborating evidence or information.

If you are getting neck splits from work hardened brass then you have a lot (defined arbitrarily by me for sake of discussion as >.003") of neck clearance in your chamber. That will work your brass and annealing is certainly helpful.

As far as sizing after pulling, opinions vary and I am entitled to mine without being insulted or called names. It would be nice is there was someone else who has actually measured and tested reseating without sizing as I have

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... on-115134/
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... ndex2.html

As far as this thread going South, I will admit that I do not react well to a condescending superior ATTITUDE first displayed by Oldtoddler (this is not the first time)

If you are going to be an "expert" you might try learning the facts first!

and being called names and further insulted by him

None of you jerks have taken college physics and it shows. Thinks about it woods and pull your head out of the dark places.

But I am willing to discuss civilly with anyone who responds in kind. Oldtoddler's typical modus operandi is to disrespect with a condescending superior tone, openly insult and call names, never answer the opposing information and look for sympathy by being an old tired man when he has no more answers. If he wants to start a fight with this attitude then he needs to learn to pack a lunch cause it will be awhile.

That being said if anyone wants me to PROVE that seating bullets deeper reduces pressure and velocity, I will. Just don't want to hi-jack this thread unless requested.

 

[hunternyny]

[

Oldtoddler's look for sympathy by being an old tired man when he has no more answers. If he wants to start a fight with this attitude then he needs to learn to pack a lunch cause it will be awhile.


If you feel this makes you look like a tough guy to the members here, you would be wrong.

You are well aware that his real name or his log on name is not --oldtoddler, but you continue to say Charlie uses derogatory language but you and songdog do not, but you have both used the title oldtoddler today.

Personally my mother would slap me silly if I ever disrespected a senior citizen especially one who has a life threatening illness as Charlie does. Charlie, I am sure makes his share of mistakes, just like we all do.

You seem to need someone to tell you, you are correct. If that is all it takes to bring this to an end, I will do that. You are correct. now can we please move on

 

[woods]

So he gets a SYMPATHY pass?

I can do that

 

[big rifle man]

Woods, I wasn't going to say what I'm thinking but I think I will. There's a big difference between having honest differences and even if you know someone is wrong mentioning it in a gentlemanly fashion and then turning around and showing yourself to be an a hole. But you are very close to the latter.

 

[woods]

From your post it's easy to see that you could be "hole" yourself upon occasion. In the past I have tried civil discussion and it hasn't worked. Never stooped to the degree that he has insulted me and called me names. Being a senior citizen is no excuse or you would have to apologize to me. Being ill does. My brother has Pancreatic cancer and I have had cancer myself. Never thought it was an excuse nor does my brother

Said I would give him a pass, what more do you want? Not that it matters, just a rhetorical question