Range Day #2

[truck driver]

I got the good DrMike to run me some QLs on CFE223 for the 35 Whelen Ack Imp and I'm glad he did.
Shooting 3 shot groups to get a velocity average I came up with 2902.33333fps with 66.0grs of CFE223out of my 24" barrel the group size was .368"X.404", OAL for the 200gr AB was 3.395" which is the length for a this bullet seated to caliber diameter of .358". I think I found a node with this load since the velocity spread was very tight.(2907-2907-2893)
Next up was 67.0grs of CFE223 with the 200gr AB and the velocity was 2893.33333fps :?: :?: :?: :?: Why was it slower then a lesser grain load of the same powder in the same brass with the same bullet :?:
The group size was .618"X.9595".

Out of a cold clean barrel I shoot some H322 under the 200gr Ab seated to a OAL of 3.395".
57.5grs avg 2835.66667fps and the groups size was 1.583"X.8115" this is miss leading because I either pulled the 3rd shot or it was a flier since the first two were cutting each other but I also found later while closely inspecting my brass I had pressure signs with this load which was the ejector slot of the bolt face nicely imprinted on the base of the brass.
58.0grs of H322 was a little better with a avg velocity of 2921.66667fps the group size shrank to .235"X.480" But here again I had pressure signs and the ejector slot of the bolt face was imprinted on the brass or should I say the brass flowed into the ejector slot. ( see inclosed pics of all six pieces of brass used for H322 load ) the light glare makes it hard to see the ejector slot marks on the brass.
I took some pics of the targets for your review and thoughts.

 

[DrMike]

That's putting the bullet where you want it, Rodger. Looks as if you have a couple of fine loads to work with.

 

[truck driver]

DrMike, could you run me a QL for H322 so I can see what kind of pressure I was running?
H322 200gr AB 24" barrel.

 

[DrMike]

Cartridge          : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet             : .358, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54425
Useable Case Capaci: 67.507 grain H2O = 4.383 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H322

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   76    46.00   2359    2471   30734   6157     96.5    1.417
-18.0   78    47.15   2411    2581   32686   6308     97.2    1.383
-16.0   80    48.30   2462    2693   34756   6451     97.9    1.349
-14.0   82    49.45   2514    2806   36955   6585     98.5    1.316
-12.0   84    50.60   2565    2921   39290   6710     98.9    1.280
-10.0   86    51.75   2615    3037   41759   6825     99.3    1.246
-08.0   88    52.90   2665    3154   44355   6931     99.6    1.213
-06.0   89    54.05   2715    3273   47096   7026     99.8    1.181
-04.0   91    55.20   2764    3392   50001   7110    100.0    1.150  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   93    56.35   2812    3513   53080   7183    100.0    1.121  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   95    57.50   2860    3634   56345   7250    100.0    1.092  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   97    58.65   2908    3756   59810   7314    100.0    1.065  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   99    59.80   2955    3878   63488   7378    100.0    1.039  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  101    60.95   3002    4002   67396   7439    100.0    1.013  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  103    62.10   3048    4126   71550   7498    100.0    0.989  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  105    63.25   3094    4251   75970   7555    100.0    0.965  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     95    57.50   2949    3862   66598   6972    100.0    1.025  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     95    57.50   2726    3300   46224   7444     98.2    1.183

 

[OU812]

Looks like a couple of dandy loads to choose from.

 

[truck driver]

Thanks OU812.


Thanks for the QL DrMike but I don't understand why I got pressure signs when I was below max with both 57.5grs and 58.0grs. I've pushed some hotter loads and didn't get the base to flow into the ejector cut in the bolt face, here I have one from each load. Is it possible that the Nosler Brass is softer?
The 58.0gr load was fairly accurate and could be tweaked but not at the expense of being dangerous.
edited for pics.
I took some new pictures of the two pieces in question so it would be more visible with out the black marks the area in question is at twelve o-clock in the pictures on the brass.
out of the the 2 loads they each had just one out of three with this mark that appears to be the ejector slot on the bolt face. The primer flow has been there every since it was an 06. Is this just two pieces of weak brass since all the rest looks good?

 

[nvbroncrider]

Time between shots? Was it the last one of each group? Just thinking you might have had enough heat in the chamber to soak into the brass on the third round to increase the pressure. Those primers are a touch flat also so you are seeing pressure. But it might be a deal that it is an induced pressure spike due to heat.

 

[gerry]

Looks great Rodger, I would run that 66 gr CFE 223 load and not look back, 2900 fps and that kind of accuracy is really great.

If you get a chance maybe you could post a picture of the standard Whelen next to the AI version both seated with the Accubonds. Would be neat to see what they look like side by side.

 

[truck driver]

Jake that is possible and I really don't know the sequence of the shots since I didn't see this until after I had fired all six rounds though I waited between shooting the different loads as I changed targets between groups and first saw it on the heavier powder charge which is more pronounced. the brass also was some older brass I had that I fire formed so I would have some Nosler brass to compare loads between the new Remington brass.

 

[truck driver]

gerry have I got a picture for you!
I must say I'm becoming every intrigued with this new chamber and Meopta Meopro scope rifle combo. As good as the standard 35 Whelen is the AI is just more of a good thing. The first groups I shot were with the scope set on 3.5 so I could see the chrony and as I got braver I set the power ring at 10. :mrgreen:
Thinking about seating the bullets a little deeper to give me a little more clearance in the magazine, 3.390"oal vs 3.395" oal and it might tighten things up a little instead of taking the spacer out of the mag box.

 

[OU812]

I would deprime the brass and weigh all the pieces and compare. I have had a similar issue using Remington brass in the past. It turned out the brass I had issues with were light in weight compared to the pieces that had no issue.

 

[OU812]

Looks great Rodger, I would run that 66 gr CFE 223 load and not look back, 2900 fps and that kind of accuracy is really great.

If you get a chance maybe you could post a picture of the standard Whelen next to the AI version both seated with the Accubonds. Would be neat to see what they look like side by side.

I'm with Gerry. That 66 CFE load is amazing, great speed and super accuracy. Those Meotpa scopes are also amazing. I know I am very pleased with mine.

 

[truck driver]

Another question I have is why did I loose velocity with the CFE 223 when I increased the powder charge by 1 grain? From 2902fps down to 2893fps, I know it's only 9fps but a little perplexed for the loose of velocity.

 

[DrMike]

Another question I have is why did I loose velocity with the CFE 223 when I increased the powder charge by 1 grain? From 2902fps down to 2893fps, I know it's only 9fps but a little perplexed for the loose of velocity.

Until you have repeated the test a time or two, you can't rule out an aberration in results. If the results are repeatable, you are likely at the peak of the pressure curve (velocity continuum). After pressure peaks, velocities become erratic for a period. Pressure is still rising, however, so correlation between pressure and velocity cannot be maintained.

 

[truck driver]

Thanks DrMike I only had Jr High science and they didn't explain or teach Ballistics. :? :roll: :lol:

 

[Alderman]

I would deprime the brass and weigh all the pieces and compare. I have had a similar issue using Remington brass in the past. It turned out the brass I had issues with were light in weight compared to the pieces that had no issue.

Just asking, but wouldn't the lighter brass have more case capacity, thus lower pressures?

 

[gerry]

Thanks for the picture Rodger. It looks like the conversion ended up working quite well, you must be pleased how everything turned out.

 

[truck driver]

gerry I'm more tickled then a pig in mud bath. :lol: Actually I haven't been this excited about a rifle in a long time and wish I had done this when I first got the M70. The only thing that will make me happier is when the bore smooths out and it stops fouling so badly.

 

[OU812]

I would deprime the brass and weigh all the pieces and compare. I have had a similar issue using Remington brass in the past. It turned out the brass I had issues with were light in weight compared to the pieces that had no issue.

Just asking, but wouldn't the lighter brass have more case capacity, thus lower pressures?

My thinking was right in line with yours and would have bet a 20.00 the heavier brass was my issue but it wasn't. Only thing I could think of is that the lighter brass was over stretching and not coming back a little as it should.

What I did was weigh the fired pieces, had lighter weight, mid weight and heavier weight brass. I then sorted the brass by weight, prepped the brass, loaded them exactly as I did the first time and went back to the range. The heavier and mid weight brass shot, extracted and looked just fine. The lighter brass, not so much.

 

[truck driver]

I weighed the brass with the primers in them and all six pieces loaded with H322 were with in a 10th of a grain of each other and most were the same weight. The brass loaded with CFE223 was heavier by several 10ths of a grain.