Sizing Dies and other things

[truck driver]

Been doing a little reading but I guess I'm confused with all the new info and my antique reloading procedures.
I have been looking at LE Wilson inline dies and they also have a new bushing neck sizing die. Unfortunately not in my caliber of choice but it seems they all have one thing in common and that is the lack of an expander ball on the decapping rod.
From what I have read the expander button is the cause of three things, case neck stretch, neck concentricity and neck tension if I have read correctly.
I've known about the case neck stretch since I started reloading and lube the inside of the case necks.
By using a smaller caliber expander ball eliminating the case neck expansion this should help with case neck tension and help keep the neck concentric?
I have extra dies I don't use and would use one in a smaller caliber to replace the decapping stem.

 

[kraky1]

The problem with using a smaller expander ball is you wind up with a smaller hole in your neck. Then when you try to seat the bullet the extra effort often takes the neck offline.
If you have some extra dies around try this.... remove the expander ball all the way. Resize your brass as you normally would.
Now take another die with the same size expander ball and push that piece of brass up onto the expander ball. For some reason when you push the brass up onto the expander ball instead of pulling it off of the expander ball during a normal sizing operation it keeps the neck in line almost every time.
I have a couple sets of Lee RGB dies that I have ground down the expander ball all the way. It will still decap the primer but leaves the case Neck un touched. Then I push that piece of brass up onto a Hornady expander in a neck die. Pushing it over the expander and then pulling it off is actually kind of a double size and which gives good neck consistency.... and like I said you won't believe the difference in run out on that brass compared to a normal sizing. another successful way to reduce run out is to cut your case necks down .002". Your sizing die will size the neck down less and it will be easier for your expandable to come up through it.

 

[BretN]

Lee collet sizers are supposed to produce very concentric ammo. I have them in several calibers, but do not own a run out gauge. They are fairly simple to use and do not require sizing lube. I find they do produce good ammo and are quicker to use, since you are not lubing or cleaning the brass after sizing. The Lee die is also very affordable, whether you buy a collet die set, or just collet neck sizing die by itself.

 

[joelkdouglas]

You can test your dies to see if the expander is hurting concentricity.

If it is, you can try a couple additional steps. Size without the sizer in place, then put it back in the die and push the expander button down into the case mouth. Evidently pulling the expander through the mouth is more damaging than pushing it down into the mouth. Test for concentricity after and you'll know if that helped.

You can also get a special expander die, mostly used for turning case necks. That's pretty drastic though.

You can also get a Lee Collet neck die, no expander used. They usually produce very good concentricity when used correctly and brass is annealed periodically.

You can alternately get a Redding or Wilson bushing die. I have used both, I don't like the Wilson as much as it's harder to use and doesn't size the entire neck. I've also had good luck with Forster dies.

 

[jimbires]

I think it's pretty hard to beat a Lee collet neck die and a redding body die .

 

[truck driver]

Got a birthday coming up, sounds like a good excuse to buy some new toys.

 

[DrMike]

Got a birthday coming up, sounds like a good excuse to buy some new toys.

Good thinking, Rodger. Always get yourself something nice--from your family, of course. :mrgreen: Thank them profusely and enjoy.

 

[joelkdouglas]

Lee Collet Dies (LCD) are inexpensive. They make straight ammo. One needs to pay attention to setting up the die and annealing for good neck tension, or buy brass more often.

Here's my history with the LCD:

I bought a LCD for 30-06 as my first set of reloading dies. Everything was great, for a while. Then the brass necks hardened up after five or six firings, and I hadn't figured out annealing yet, and they started giving me inconsistent neck tension. I could push a bullet into the case with my hand after sizing. Then I tried a Redding Type S neck bushing die, and it gave me more consistent neck tension. I chucked the LCD.

Then I got a concentricity gauge, and the Type S die didn't result in perfectly concentric ammo.

Then I got a Redding Competition bushing die (the one with the sliding sleeve that supports the case throughout the sizing). It produces very good concentricity and very good neck tension.

Then I bought yet another LCD to test it out (did I mention they are inexpensive?). I put the mandrel in a handheld drill and "polished" the mandrel with some sandpaper. I payed particular attention to how the die was set up. It does make straight ammo--as straight as the Redding Competition die, at much less cost.

After you've fired the brass three or four times you'll need to anneal, or buy new brass, or you could have neck tension problems. Now that I anneal it's not a big deal. I am considering an annealing machine to produce more consistent annealing results...or I just need to count to six more consistently!

Of note, the Redding Type S die makes more concentric ammo with a Redding shellholder. The Lee shellholder holds the brass "tighter", and I think this results in the body of the case not able to move as much. If you use a LCD with the Lee shellholder you're fine--I only saw the problem with the Lee shellholder and the Redding Type S die. Bushing dies have other "problems" as well, just like the LCD has problems.

When I bought dies for a 25-06, I purchased a LCD and a Redding body die. If you anneal and polish the mandrel the LCDs are great dies.

 

[truck driver]

Lee Collet Dies (LCD) are inexpensive. They make straight ammo. One needs to pay attention to setting up the die and annealing for good neck tension, or buy brass more often.

Here's my history with the LCD:

I bought a LCD for 30-06 as my first set of reloading dies. Everything was great, for a while. Then the brass necks hardened up after five or six firings, and I hadn't figured out annealing yet, and they started giving me inconsistent neck tension. I could push a bullet into the case with my hand after sizing. Then I tried a Redding Type S neck bushing die, and it gave me more consistent neck tension. I chucked the LCD.

Then I got a concentricity gauge, and the Type S die didn't result in perfectly concentric ammo.

Then I got a Redding Competition bushing die (the one with the sliding sleeve that supports the case throughout the sizing). It produces very good concentricity and very good neck tension.

Then I bought yet another LCD to test it out (did I mention they are inexpensive?). I put the mandrel in a handheld drill and "polished" the mandrel with some sandpaper. I payed particular attention to how the die was set up. It does make straight ammo--as straight as the Redding Competition die, at much less cost.

After you've fired the brass three or four times you'll need to anneal, or buy new brass, or you could have neck tension problems. Now that I anneal it's not a big deal. I am considering an annealing machine to produce more consistent annealing results...or I just need to count to six more consistently!

Of note, the Redding Type S die makes more concentric ammo with a Redding shellholder. The Lee shellholder holds the brass "tighter", and I think this results in the body of the case not able to move as much. If you use a LCD with the Lee shellholder you're fine--I only saw the problem with the Lee shellholder and the Redding Type S die. Bushing dies have other "problems" as well, just like the LCD has problems.

When I bought dies for a 25-06, I purchased a LCD and a Redding body die. If you anneal and polish the mandrel the LCDs are great dies.

Thanks for the info. You sound like me since I think I have done the same thing from time to time but with other tools.
I may be crazy trying to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved that I can get and the barrel may not be capable of what I want and may have to put a custom barrel on the rifle to get it which was the original plan to begin with. This barrel shows some promise and I want to see what it is capable of so I'm going to feed it the best ammo I can make and see what it will do. :mrgreen:

 

[jimbires]

lee collet dies work by squeezing the case neck on the mandrel . after the squeeze stops the brass will naturally " spring back" causing the neck to expand a little .

bushing dies without the use of an expander ball squeeze the necks into the bushing . when the brass case is removed the neck will "spring back " causing the neck to expand a little .

other dies , regular dies or bushing dies with the expander ball in use . when you remove the brass case the last thing to happen to the neck is it has an expander ball pulled through it . the brass case will " spring back " a little causing the neck to SHRINK a little .

 

[kraky1]

Totally agree jim. I usually see the Lee collet die springback .0005. So that .002 mandrel that comes as standard equipment often leaves you with .0015 actual grip. So what the rookie lee user does is crank the die down a little more and try to put more pressure on the sleeve in a vain attempt to get that bullet grip up more. This stresses the heck out of the leek collet die which is not a real strongly-built die and eventually you "bell" the sleeve a little bit. Ive been there...done that lol! This is another reason to like undersized mandrel because you don't have to crank the heck out of the die and a little spring back kind of takes you back to a nicer spot for neck tension. Personally I think lee has it wrong with that mandrel size they send as standard equip.
If lee came out with their own version of a body die and sent it in a kit with a little better built collet die and a few Mandrels I think they would take the World by storm..... but I think they're currently so busy they don't really need to look at new ideas!

 

[30-338]

Been doing a little reading but I guess I'm confused with all the new info and my antique reloading procedures.
I have been looking at LE Wilson inline dies and they also have a new bushing neck sizing die. Unfortunately not in my caliber of choice but it seems they all have one thing in common and that is the lack of an expander ball on the decapping rod.
From what I have read the expander button is the cause of three things, case neck stretch, neck concentricity and neck tension if I have read correctly.
I've known about the case neck stretch since I started reloading and lube the inside of the case necks.
By using a smaller caliber expander ball eliminating the case neck expansion this should help with case neck tension and help keep the neck concentric?
I have extra dies I don't use and would use one in a smaller caliber to replace the decapping stem.

Wilson dies are different as their not threaded dies and only make neck die and seater. Their neck die only sizes 3/16" of the neck so they never need expander. Wilson been in business over 80 yrs.

http://www.lewilson.com/

 

[Elkman]

TD, perhaps you are overachieving? Missed any shots lately because of inaccurate reloads? This discussion reminds me one one that took place last year at midnight in Wyoming while packing parts of a bull elk off the hill. It involved one of the posters on this subject and another young man. It was regarding I believe, which high quality barrel should one use to replace the barrel on a hunting rifle, already capable of shooting MOA groups. This went on for at least an hour. It happily ended once got to the bottom of the hill. It was a great day and evening.

 

[truck driver]

TD, perhaps you are overachieving? Missed any shots lately because of inaccurate reloads? This discussion reminds me one one that took place last year at midnight in Wyoming while packing parts of a bull elk off the hill. It involved one of the posters on this subject and another young man. It was regarding I believe, which high quality barrel should one use to replace the barrel on a hunting rifle, already capable of shooting MOA groups. This went on for at least an hour. It happily ended once got to the bottom of the hill. It was a great day and evening.

You possibly could be right and I'm trying to get more out of a barrel then it can give but I sure am learning a lot of different things to try and will probably end up replacing the barrel with a custom barrel that will do what I want. :mrgreen:

 

[Elkman]

Roger
I passed on a rifle to another younger hunter last week, a long time friend and while loading for it, i was using the dies my dad had bought for it. The price tag said $5.50, i had sighted it in for 100 and while he was here, we sighted in for a dead on hold at 300. His first 12 shots with a rifle he had never shot before, that was built in the 60's went in under 4 inches. he was so happy he was shaking like a puppy. I admire those who strive for perfection, god bless them, because without them we could still be driving model "A" s. Keep after it, and hopefully you will get the results you are striving for.

 

[truck driver]

Elkman,
I very rarely give up on anything, I get frustrated some times but always regroup and try something different. Though I will probably never go the full route to achieve perfect neck tension I am learning how it's done along with concentricity.
This old dog has been reloading for over 53 years and still learning new tricks, I have just never gotten this deep into it since all those years my info came from books and not a computer.
I just opened up a box of Sierra 7mm bullets that had a $10 price tag for 100 bullets that I had laying around.
I've been spoiled with great shooting rifles and love making a silk purse out of a sows ear.
The 35 Whelen AI rebore has been a challenge and can't wait to get more different weight bullets for it to try. Though most would be satisfied with it the way it is I just need to see what it is capable of. :mrgreen:

 

[Dr. Vette]

I think it's pretty hard to beat a Lee collet neck die and a redding body die .

I agree. Those are the first two things I buy, if able, when I obtain a different cartridge.

 

[joelkdouglas]

TD, perhaps you are overachieving? Missed any shots lately because of inaccurate reloads? This discussion reminds me one one that took place last year at midnight in Wyoming while packing parts of a bull elk off the hill. It involved one of the posters on this subject and another young man. It was regarding I believe, which high quality barrel should one use to replace the barrel on a hunting rifle, already capable of shooting MOA groups. This went on for at least an hour. It happily ended once got to the bottom of the hill. It was a great day and evening.

That was a great night!

We all need what you have...a range in your back yard! Then instead of talking about barrels we could be shooting!

 

[kraky1]

Those are pretty fresh bandages on those fingers.... no pain no gain ....LOL!

 

[truck driver]

Those are pretty fresh bandages on those fingers.... no pain no gain ....LOL!

Yeah , when I saw that I was wondering who butchered whom :roll: :lol: :mrgreen: