Straight wall cartridges for hunting
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Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
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To limit the range in populated areas is the reason.
I expect more and more states to adopt these rules as time goes on.
The reason the residents don't fight it is because they've fought to get it... some of these states were shotgun only before this.
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I expect more and more states to adopt these rules as time goes on.
The reason the residents don't fight it is because they've fought to get it... some of these states were shotgun only before this.
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Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,789
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Ya, it's a new thing for the states to even allow rifles at all for deer hunting. Was only shotgun, archery or muzzle loader in most of them from what I understand.
Maybe eventually more rifle cartridges will be allowed?
This is a good step, even though it's kinda odd.
Guy
Maybe eventually more rifle cartridges will be allowed?
This is a good step, even though it's kinda odd.
Guy
For many years, Steuben County (and many others) in New York State only allowed deer hunting with shotgun slugs, pistols, bows, and muzzleloaders. Back in the 1970's it would sound like a war on opening morning. Hunters were blazing away with smooth bore barrels with bead sights and foster style slugs. Slugs were flying everywhere. It was pretty common to hear a hunter fire all five rounds in his shotgun. Sometimes, if they were using a Winchester M12, you would hear seven shots. I have heard multiple hunters fire at a deer running across a hillside with 10-15 shots being fired. The advent of rifled shotgun barrels, sabot slugs, and scoped shotguns helped reduced the number of shots fired. But, multiple shots were still the norm.
Across the border in PA, where they used rifles, you would hear single shots, sometimes a second shot. Only occasionally would you hear someone shoot several times. Personally, I felt a lot safer in PA.
About fifteen years ago, they had a couple of years of "trial periods" in Steuben County with rifles. Guess what.
They found that the accident rate went down. Now Steuben county and several others are allowing the use of rifles. Apparently shooting one well placed accurate bullet was safer than spraying the woods with shotgun slugs. (saying in a sarcastic tone) Who would have figured????
In the 1970's and 1980's we would have gladly accepted straight wall rifle cartridges if we couldn't have gotten essentially all centerfire rifle cartridges. Dan
Across the border in PA, where they used rifles, you would hear single shots, sometimes a second shot. Only occasionally would you hear someone shoot several times. Personally, I felt a lot safer in PA.
About fifteen years ago, they had a couple of years of "trial periods" in Steuben County with rifles. Guess what.
They found that the accident rate went down. Now Steuben county and several others are allowing the use of rifles. Apparently shooting one well placed accurate bullet was safer than spraying the woods with shotgun slugs. (saying in a sarcastic tone) Who would have figured????
In the 1970's and 1980's we would have gladly accepted straight wall rifle cartridges if we couldn't have gotten essentially all centerfire rifle cartridges. Dan
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- #6
As stated it is a measure to reduce the range of lethal energy so to make a “safer” hunting environment. I live in Michigan and this is a continual debate when all factors are considered and it makes for an absolute nightmare for the DNRE. You have cartridge development such as the 450 Bushmaster and 350 Legend, smokeless muzzleloaders, modern shotgun slug ammo, population growth that should extend zones but needs years of research. Then throw in elevated stands that are legal now for years and change the shot angles making hunting from these platforms safer than from the ground. Makes for a rather large headache. However, being a Law Enforcement officer who’s patrol area is along the shotgun/rifle line I find accidents regarding homes or people being hit by stray bullets very rare. More are hit on New Years Eve by fools firing guns in the air.
The latest developments such as the 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster are big hits. The guns are well made, accurate and deadly effective on deer out to 250 yards when compared to the old slug guns. Some claim farther but simple physics don’t lie when you see energy, velocity and, trajectory tables. It’s a step in the right direction but a heavy dose of common sense and hunter safety would be better served. People on forums like this are the minority in the hunting world. Most people here are intelligent and “get it” in most all aspects of hunting and shooting. I have seen some really ignorant people with firearms in their hands out in the field unfortunately and, it makes me realize why there are the restrictions in place.
The latest developments such as the 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster are big hits. The guns are well made, accurate and deadly effective on deer out to 250 yards when compared to the old slug guns. Some claim farther but simple physics don’t lie when you see energy, velocity and, trajectory tables. It’s a step in the right direction but a heavy dose of common sense and hunter safety would be better served. People on forums like this are the minority in the hunting world. Most people here are intelligent and “get it” in most all aspects of hunting and shooting. I have seen some really ignorant people with firearms in their hands out in the field unfortunately and, it makes me realize why there are the restrictions in place.
NYDAN":1dcd2ioj said:
Same here in Schoharie County. I wanna say it was 2006/2006 that rifles were allowed in my home county. Years before I felt like a sniper with my rifled 11-87 12 gauge since I could hammer a slug accurately in a 150 yard target. The same year it changed I used a new to me 35 Whelen and took a good buck at 250 and a doe at 150 yards and was so much happier. Less recoil and more accurate shots. Way less accidents. What you described about opening morning was the same back home. It wasn’t anything to hear a 100 shots go off before 10 AM opening morning. With rifles you might hear 10-15, maybe..
Funny thing is it changed hunting. While most smarter folks set up in wood lots that were within range of their weapons when using slug guns. Now we have a bunch of folks sitting on fields and places where they can see further. No longer do you get folks pushing deer around much anymore either. They sit in their blinds or stands mostly. Kind of a neat deal either way and funny to see it evolve some. Me, I still like to be in the woods over some smoking hot sign and later in the season really enjoy long walks over the state land to try and push deer in standers direction. We don’t drive hard but it’s more of a still hunt to bump deer. Works well for us as a group though.
I don’t miss those slugs recoil though! My God how those suckers pounded a shooter or especially a young hunter.
SJB358":3qv0m8bk said:
Interesting perspective. I grew up in the extreme north west portion of Michigan’s Upper Peninsula. You’d need to look at a map but on the Keweenaw Peninsula. All rifles that far north but it’s mixed cover. Thick cedar swamps, open hardwoods and rolling hills of ancient Hemlock and White Pine. I find sitting to be something I do after I’ve walked all day. A lot of guys do it and stake claim with a pile of apples. I’ve found it counter productive. The deer know where you are and the wolves use your bait as a spring board for an easy kill I’ve also found that the more guys sitting in an area the less deer you see. The deer go nocturnal quicker and avoid the blinds/baits until dark. Just what I’ve experienced. I’m okay with it though because most blinds and baits are close to a road and leaves the rest of the woods to me.
More on topic, I think these new cartridges are a step in the right direction and will be a gateway to full power rifle cartridges
It's hard to push for something seen as potentially decreasing safety, whether the decrease is real or imagined. Who wants to be the beaurocrat or legislator who votes for something that causes a death or injury? Kind of like raising the speed limit, it's by nature an uphill battle.
As a general rule, we here tend to be very safe, ethical hunters with a good understanding of ballistics. Modern shotgun ammo ain't your Grandpa's foster slugs, and in fact are more powerful/longer ranging than straight wall pistol cartridges and many of the straight wall BP rifle rounds. Try explaining that to a legislature, half of whom think "guns are bad" and hunters are uneducated rednecks, you'll get a lot of blank stares and some outright hostility.
I think this is a battle shotgun states are gradually winning, but it is a gradual process. I doubt you'll ever (or should IMHO) see widespread adoption of bottleneck rifle rounds in historically shotgun zones.
Most shotgun only zones tend to be largely agricultural. Opening these areas to bottleneck rifle rounds would lead to more sniping and less hunting in my opinion, (you can already see it with modern shotguns/ammo, now stretch that range to 500 yards??!!) and that would be a negative to the hunting experience overall.
As a general rule, we here tend to be very safe, ethical hunters with a good understanding of ballistics. Modern shotgun ammo ain't your Grandpa's foster slugs, and in fact are more powerful/longer ranging than straight wall pistol cartridges and many of the straight wall BP rifle rounds. Try explaining that to a legislature, half of whom think "guns are bad" and hunters are uneducated rednecks, you'll get a lot of blank stares and some outright hostility.
I think this is a battle shotgun states are gradually winning, but it is a gradual process. I doubt you'll ever (or should IMHO) see widespread adoption of bottleneck rifle rounds in historically shotgun zones.
Most shotgun only zones tend to be largely agricultural. Opening these areas to bottleneck rifle rounds would lead to more sniping and less hunting in my opinion, (you can already see it with modern shotguns/ammo, now stretch that range to 500 yards??!!) and that would be a negative to the hunting experience overall.
One simple thing to limit possibility of rifle bullets going a long ways off and hitting house etc. that is used in Northamption Co, NC where it is FLAT LAND is you have to be off the ground at least 8 feet and have written permission on you from the land owner to deer hunt with a rifle. This makes your shot angle being downward into the ground if a miss or a pass through.
noslerpartition
Handloader
- May 26, 2018
- 1,021
- 396
Don't be too sure about that bullet staying in the ground. There is a study (German only) that at an angle between 5 and 10° some, below 5° all bullets bounce off. Even from soft ground. Like scipping rocks.1Shot":25gn10ql said:
Yes, they loose speed. But after reading it, I don't take some shots due to houses somewhere in the background.
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noslerpartition":3u469sjz said:
Not surprised about this. As a 20+ year LEO I’ve been made aware of a lot of weird or unexpected behaviors of bullets through unfortunate events and investigations. Buck shot will behave similarly and can be used advantageously. Buckshot when fired at a hard surface such as concrete has been found to “skip” off the ground and stay above the surface about 12”-18” so I’ve been told. Good tactic for getting a load of buckshot underneath a car and to the other side when other means aren’t available.
Charlie-NY
Handloader
- Mar 11, 2005
- 1,432
- 887
Bullets that hit the ground from an elevated blind would not only decrease in speed but would suffer from significant deformation. This should greatly reduce the potential to travel over distance. IMO most of those bullets probably embed at their original point of impact. Elevated blinds certainly aren't a bad idea in more suburban areas.
Gunner46
Handloader
- Jan 12, 2015
- 483
- 4
Hey, us guys have waited for a long, long time to at least have ANY opportunity to hunt with a rifle, straight walled or not.
No, I will not argue the insanity behind why a 38 Special and a 50/110 are legal.
A 38 Spec is absolutely as marginal as one could get....a 50/110 is perfect for a Mastodon, Kodiak Bear, or Elephant. Both are legal for a 100 doe.
A M94 or M336 in a 30/30, 32 Spec, or 35 Rem are illegal because they have a shoulder in the case.
Unless things have changed since last I checked, in IN you can hunt with a rifle chambered with either a 243 or 30 caliber....period. So, a 300RUM is cool, a 7mm/08 gets ya locked up!
No, I will not argue the insanity behind why a 38 Special and a 50/110 are legal.
A 38 Spec is absolutely as marginal as one could get....a 50/110 is perfect for a Mastodon, Kodiak Bear, or Elephant. Both are legal for a 100 doe.
A M94 or M336 in a 30/30, 32 Spec, or 35 Rem are illegal because they have a shoulder in the case.
Unless things have changed since last I checked, in IN you can hunt with a rifle chambered with either a 243 or 30 caliber....period. So, a 300RUM is cool, a 7mm/08 gets ya locked up!
