Suggestions for 1st deer rifle / youth gun

[PipesMac]

Hi all,
Just a starter post on my current interest to give some discussion opportunities I said "Hi" on the NewGuy thread also.
I've been reading all night, and have searched up 10 or 15 good threads on this subject, linked below. I'm looking for a good rifle to get my 11 yo son to ease him into deer hunting. Hunt on family land in MI, stands near fields and some woods. Son is small framed, likely will remain so. From all my reading, I'm leaning towards:
1. 243Win with 95gr BT , or
2. 7mm-08 with 120gr BT or possibly lighter bullet if there's a good one.

Right now he's shooting left-handed in BB/pellet guns. However, I'm left handed too and shoot a right-hand Abolt, but just shoot either hand depending on the shot offered, without issue... so I'm not super convinced LH/RH needs to be a huge issue, particularly as LH youth guns are sparse.
I've looked at the:
1. Savage model 11 youth model, on sale with scope at Cabelas until last night (DOH!)
2. Ruger AmericanRifle compact, or their M77 compact
3. Browning X-Bolt Micro Hunter (I have one in .284Win Micro Medallion and love it)
4. I've seen Rem 700 SPS youth model, and Model70 compact mentioned, but never seen either

Other factors:
- I reload for my 284Win and have 7mm bullets and powders. All the powders seem they'll do well in either 7mm08 or 243Win though
- We'll likely only do MI whitetail hunting, don't have anywhere great to do else (Phoenix).
- Will probably do some range shooting with a couple good ranges close. I love accuracy!
- I like the idea of one rifle you grow to know and love, reloading as needed leaning me towards 7mm08 if elk considered, or 243 if small game considered (more likely).

So--
Which of these is a better starter cartridge / rifle for benchrest/learning, and whitetail?
Is there much if any difference between the kick/recoil? Could you really use a 20" barrelled 7mm08 for elk?
Does the 95gr vs. 120 gr make much difference to kick/recoil at deer loadings?
Which of these guns is anyone really enthused about for small shooters and future use?

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts!

Reference threads:
Easy shooting rifles, for deer viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26105&hilit=youth+kids
truck gun viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21096&start=50&hilit=youth+kids
youth rifle suggestions viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15223&hilit=kids+youth+rifle
minimum loads viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25551&hilit=youth+kids
7-08 youth load viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22584&hilit=youth+kids
latest youth rifle idea viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15952&hilit=kids+youth+rifle
savage 7-08 youth model viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15465&hilit=kids+youth+rifle
youth loads viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13290&hilit=kids+youth+rifle
In need of a new Caliber viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6263&hilit=youth+kids

 

[DrMike]

Dave,

There are no bad choices in the rifles you list; each would serve your son well. I bought a LH Tikka and chambered it in .260 Rem. for my grandson. I also have a Remington Model 7 chambered in .260 and a Remington chambered in .257 Roberts for the other grandchildren. The .260 is adequate for deer (or black bear/elk and even moose). This being the case, the 7mm-08 is assuredly sufficient for most of the game your son will ever encounter in North America. Loaded with 120 grain BTs, the 7mm-08 will serve the serious hunter quite well. Neither do I t believe a shooter would find the recoil with a 140 grain PT, AB or E-Tip to be overly severe. Fortunately, left-handed versions can be found in several of these rifles, which may be of interest to your son.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I made my girls a Wby Vanguard in 243 by using a regular Vanguard and adding a Hogue youth stock, available through Legacy Sports. Very nice, very accurate rifle that will be a full size rifle by swapping just the stock. It's nicer than any other youth rifle I could find.

I also bought them a youth Savage Axis in 223 for practicing. Once the trigger is tuned the Axis isn't that bad of a rifle, and is shooting well for them. It's more accurate than its price suggests it should be, starting at $275 on Gunbroker. They make these in 243, and also can be upgrade in the future with a Boyds laminate stock if you wished.

Good luck on your quest.

 

[Thebear_78]

I don’t know what is going to be best for you but I will tell you the route that I went with my 10 yr old son. He is left eye dominant and shoots MUCH better left handed. Being right handed myself I didn’t have a lot of guns that can swap out. One that I had in particular was a T/C Encore. I have several barrels for it including 22-250, 30/06, and 209x50 ML.

I found a m4 style butt stock for the encore that allowed it to go from 10” LOP to 14” LOP. I picked up a used 308 barrel and chopped it down to 17.25”, as short as I could get it in my lathe, and topped it with a 2-7 nikon scope. The whole package is very short and handy but still has a little bit of heft to it. The weight helps tame the recoil. I tought him to shoot using shooting sticks.

Started off with reduced loads using 150gr BTs and Trailboss powder. It recoiled about like a 22 LR and was quiet and fun to shoot. It cost me a small fortune in components to feed the shooting demands of an excited 10 yr old but with 22 lr ammo in scarce demand it filled the need.

After several several months of light loads I started introducing some full powered loads into the mix. Finally settled in to a load with 130gr TTSX @ 2900fps. It should work well for blackbear, caribou and even a moose if he gets a chance at one.

 

[rjm158]

I would also suggest looking at the Marlin XS7Y in the calibers you mentioned. They are easier on the wallet but are definite shooters. They are not made in a left hand version, though.

Ron

 

[SJB358]

I bought my son a M700 Compact 243 when he was a little younger than your son. He loved it. Shot a lot of 80-85 grain bullets with Varget and it worked excellent. If I were buying another today I would likely get an M70 Compact in 7-08. It's real easy to make reduced power loads and also load up the 7-08 to full power levels. It's a lot more versatile overall. Lots of great choices but the LH'ed part will add a little twist to it. Good luck and hopefully you can get him set up right. The first one is tough as they seem to grow so fast.

 

[super-7]

My nephew has had great luck with the savage model 10 youth. Bought when he was 11 , we stepped him up with lighter loads . By the time he was 12 and legal to hunt biggame here we was pretty proficient with it. He took a small buck that first fall, the next year he went 3-3 with one shot kills including a nice WT buck. At 14 he shot his first moose with it, he put 2 shots into it but she was dead on her feet after the first one.
The rifle is savage model 10 youth, in 243 Win topped with a 3x9x 40 bushnell elite. This gun holds MOA with nosler 100 gr PT's out to 300 yrds. Although he practiced out to that yardage we stuck with under 200 yrd shots.
Oh and as he grows it is easy to swap stocks and screw another barrel in caliber of your choice with a savage. ( not an Axis fan though ) My buddy just bought his son one to hunt with next year a package deal now comes with : stainless barrel , detachable box mag, accu trigger, and a 3x9x40 Nikon monarch. ( in 243) for just over 600$ cdn. They came out target practiceing at my place this fall and while the young fella needs more trigger time , I was able to put 3 groups of 3 under an inch with federal blue box.

 

[Larry in SD]

First of all you have received a lot of really good advice. When my daughters first started hunting I started them out with a .223 handloaded with either 64gr. Winchester Power Points or 70gr. Speer Semi Spitzers.

However by the time my grandkids were old enough to hunt I was older and hopefully a little smarter. My two oldest grandkids started with a Remington Model 700 .308 that I modified for my petite wife. It started out as a Stainless Synthetic SPS. The first thing I did was shorten the barrel to 18 1/2". I next free floated the barrel and tuned the trigger. I mounted up a Bushnell Elite 3200 3x9x40mm Firefly. I had originally intended to buy a used SPS Short Action Stock and have it shortened but never did.

The first loads I loaded came straight from the Hodgdon Youth Loading Data Web Site. I used 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with H-4895. I used the specs right to the letter from the Hodgdon Youth Loading Data Web Site right down to Cartridge Overall Length. Accuracy ranged from 1" to 1 1/2" for 5 shots from the bench at 100 yards. That gun and load has yet to miss a deer and only one required more than one shot. All the rest were DRT at ranges from about 30 yards out to 200 yards.

We also used the same rifle with 165gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Varget for full power loads with excellent results. Don't be afraid of a shorter barrel as they can produce really good accuracy and in the case of the .308 don't loose a lot of velocity with the shorter barrels in my experience.

Larry

PS with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Youth Loads recoil was about like a .243 shooting full power loads. This was a right handed bolt action. My grandkids all shoot right handed but my wife shot it left handed without issue.

 

[Polaris]

As you already load .284, the 7mm-08 would be a good pick. .260 Rem will get you into a bit less recoil while still shooting flat if you don't mind keeping some extra bullets on hand.

With a bullet of light construction, you could download it to a mid-range 7X57 level and have a real peach of a shooter.

I would go with the Savage. It will make an effective tool for taking deer until the lad outgrows it. If you wanted at that point, you could restock it with a quality piece of thumbhole Walnut or a fancy plastic stock and put some first rate optics on it for say... graduation or sell it to finance a larger rifle.

Another option you might consider would be a .308. Downloaded to .30-30 levels with a 150 gr Flex tip recoil is quite light and it is still very effective on deer. This cartridge responds well to reduced loads. Surplus ammo and brass for lots of range practice is available as-well.

Definitely go with the Left-Hand rifle to start the Lad off right though.

 

[Divernhunter]

The Ruger or a Savage in 260Rem/7mm-08 or 308 loaded down to start would be a good budget rifle with a Leupold 3X9X40 scope. I listed the chambering in the order I would buy.
Better yet would be a Tikka T-3 Lite in 260Rem or 7-08 or 308Win. in that order with a Leupold 3X9X40 scope and a Claw sling and he will be set for life. If getting the Tikka I suggest replacing the recoil pad with the direct replacement Limbsaver one. I have a 6.5X55(like the 260Rem) and a 7mm-08 Tikka set up like this and they are really great.
When my daughter was young I got a Ruger M77 in 257Roberts for her. I got another stock and had it shortened with a good recoil pad also. I loaded light loads and she shot it so much she wore out the barrel. I had it rebarreled and put a B&C stock on it for her when we went to Africa(she is 21 now) and she killed Kudu,Red Hartebeesr,Zebra,Impala(2), Warthogs(5) then came home at took 2 deer all with one shot each.

If I were to do it over I would have got her a Tikka T-3 Lite in 260Rem(or 6.5X55) since she is always trying to get one of mine. Hint: She will get both when I die but must wait.
In Europe they use the 6.5X55 for Moose,Stag,Boar and such. With proper bullet placement the 260Rem(slightly hotter than the 6.5X55) would work just fine. It outpreforms what it shows on paper partly due to the long bullets.
Do not handicap the boy. Get a left hand rifle to start with.

 

[wildgene]

...well, Dave, I'm somewhat of an iconoclast, ok, curmudgeon, so take any advice I give you w/ a grain of salt...

...it appears you have done quite a bit of research already, but it looks to me like it's time to throw the actual "shooter" into the fray. Make this into a "Father/ Son Project". Start discussing w/ your son what a "First Rifle" ought to be. I'm kinda old school, I think you should throw the biggest, fastest bullet you can shoot well, so I would lean towards the 7-08 or a 6.5, meself. Personal prejudices, I'm not a fan of ultra-lite super compact rifles. There are exceptions to every rule, but they tend to be finicky, too small in the wrong places, & poorly balanced (my opinion, get yer own), bolt don't lock down I don't want nuthin to do w/ it, etc.etc.etc. You might want to sit down w/ your son & look for what might fit your needs. Make a chart of features, +'s/-'s of rifles that might work. Look @ calibers, look @ ballistics charts, availability, flexibility, reviews, all that stuff. Then go looking for "The Rifle". Keep an open mind, "The Perfect Rifle" might just be sitting in a dusty corner of a little gunshop, in a make/ model/ caliber you hadn't even considered...

 

[JohnB]

All

What about the 150 ABLR in 7mm-08 or the 129 ABLR in one of the 6.5's. You could load them to the lowest velocities that were practical and still have confidence they would expand with a minimum recommended impact velocity of 1300 ft/sec.

JohnB

 

[gerry]

All

What about the 150 ABLR in 7mm-08 or the 129 ABLR in one of the 6.5's. You could load them to the lowest velocities that were practical and still have confidence they would expand with a minimum recommended impact velocity of 1300 ft/sec.

JohnB

That's a great point the ABLR would be good for reduced loads.

Can't really add too much other than a proper LH rifle would be the way to go. Thankfully today there are some good LH youth options.

 

[PipesMac]

Great thoughts all, particularly coming from folks that have been through this already.

That wee Encore is a great fit for that kid! Would never have thought of that. And I never considered Tikka either, will give them a look.

I had a thought reading, as folks talked about handing the guns down through various kids... I have THREE kids. Maybe I don't have to choose, could just buy the smaller of whichever and see how it goes, see what they like and graduate up from there.

Wildgene makes some good points, if I can get them enthused in shooting and hunting, they will develop some wishes themselves that I may not foresee. Who would have thought I'd end up with .284, but it was "the Rifle" for me.

We did some eye dominance tests and BB shooting today, son is pretty left eye dominant and much prefers the left hand shot. I'll listen to the multiple advice on going with Lhand gun, that will limit choices some.

 

[PipesMac]

Folks experience with some of these gun models is really helpful, as it's dang hard to get your hands on many of them to look at, let alone shoot, and that 3 min at Cabelas the salesman will give you with hands-on after a 20 min wait for him doesn't give much comparison time. Looked at the Savage Axis combo as well as the Savage compact model 11 model the other day, it was like pulling teeth to get both of them together. I did see the LOP on both was waaay too long for my son, he has a good bit of growing to do to fit one of them.

That TC with the m4 extendable stock is intriguing... got me thinking, I've been considering an AR style gun for some time. It's possible that buying one for me, 223, might give me a light shooting small platform that I could easily fit to son, and might be just the thing to step him into centerfire shooting with low recoil.

One of the threads I read here was talking about how all the kids these days know 10 different AR/assault rifle models form the video games they play, but have no idea about model 70, 243, 270, 308 etc., and that this might offer an avenue of approach to hook that next generations interest.

But how will it go over when I tell the wife, "Honey, we need to do it for the kids, think of the children!" Honestly, she's interested in an AR too... I guess it's not something I should argue with hey?

 

[Polaris]

http://centerfiresystems.com/RI1975K-N.aspx

Here's another very interesting option nobody's thought of. A mini-mauser in 7.62X39. The cartridge with the proper ammo is a fine short to med range deer round and can be handloaded to be highly accurate in a boltgun. Recoil will be almost non-existent. You could easily take some wood off that stock to shorten LOP.

The big bonus to this rifle would be the ready availability of LOTS of inexpensive practice ammo to get the boy truly proficient with his bangstick. They also make it in .223 but that's too light for Northwoods deer.

 

[Anonymous]

My son is confoundedly left dominantly eyed.

After a very long looking I finally found a Savage 7-08 in LH… looks pretty nice for a $500 rifles, incl a Nikon scope.

Hope it shoots up to Savage's reputation.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I am left dominant eyed and right handed. So far my kids and grandkids are right handed. With my two shooting grandkids and my three sons who shoot, I never bought any of them a "youth gun". I gave each of them a quality scoped (Leupold or Zeiss), full sized rifle in .25-06, 6.5x55 or .270 Win caliber (Remington, CZ or Ruger) when they were 16 or so and had passed Hunter's Safety Training. This along with a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun. These were all quality firearms that I had shot deer with and were proven with loads to go with them. Before they were 16, if they wanted to shoot, I would loan them a gun and go to the range with them.

 

[DrMike]

Dave,

Quality wise, many of these rifles are very good. The Model 70 compact is a beautiful rifle and is quality. The Tikka is a fine example of the art of rifle making. The same is true of the Browning. Remington Model 7 is not the same quality that would have been available a few years back, but it is still a good rifle. The Savage will give you years of dependable service, and it will shoot well out of the box. All can be fitted with after market stocks or cut down to fit your son's LOP. The TC and the AR concept is fascinating. I do like the idea of a single shot for a first rifle. Keep us abreast of your shopping. Hey, Christmas is coming. :grin:

 

[Guy Miner]

For my youngest son, I put my good old short action 6mm Rem 700 into a "youth" stock and loaded up a bunch of mild practice ammo. We hit the range together a lot where he got used to the rifle.

Then he shot a nice doe at almost 300 yards with that gun! It had been mine, a gift from Dad on high school graduation about a million years ago. Now it's his.

Ten years later, he has used it on a lot of rockchuck hunts, and hauled it out again for another instant one-shot kill on another buck. It's been back in the full-size factory stock for a long time now.

Regards, Guy