Survival/ Savage/Blaser

[Europe]

It is already five o'clock somewhere and that is here for me. We was just discussing three different topics with a group of nice Italian gentlemen

1. Would you consider a "combo" rifle/shotgun as your "one" gun, if you could only take one gun into the wilderness ?

2. What caliber/gauge would it be
a. if it was a combo shotgun/rifle
b. what would you take instead of a "combo" gun ( but only one firearm )

3. We have, or did, I assume my son still has it -- a Blaser ( 6.5 Swede and 20 gauge ) that we used on several occasions and liked it. We probably had at least a half dozen Savage 24;s while the children were growing up and they were used a lot. I believe the most used was the Hornet over a 20 gauge, everybody loved that little gun, especially as a camp gun.

What do you have now, did have, and did you like them ? use them ?

4. And last but not least, we had a good discussion about----when you were young and healthy---with one combo gun ( and plenty of ammo ), a knife and hand axe, how long could you survive ?

And the second part of this was interesting--how long would you prefer to stay lost ? A week ?, a month ?, a year ?, longer ?

 

[Anonymous]

Pretty interesting stuff...I've never owned a combo gun. My cousins had a Savage 24 in .22 over .410 that floated between them but never made it down to me. A buddy had a later Savage in 30-30 over 12 gauge as well as an M6 Survival in .22/.410 that I thought was about the crudest gun I'd ever seen. I never understood the whole .22/.410 thing since I couldn't hit a flying target with the shotgun and had a tough time hitting with the .22- I'd have done a lot better with a better grade .22 for protein procurements.

I did see a Valmet up here years ago in .308WIN over 20gauge... that thing was nice. The owner loved it for caribou hunting and busting ptarmigan as a target of opportunity. While the bug never bit me- I could do some very good hunting with that (or the Blaser you mentioned).

I think the combo guns are more of a European thing than N. American. Lots of places they are prohibited for hunting since some of our seasons don't overlap- my buddy with the 30-30 over 12 gauge got ticketed while hunting turkeys.

As a rambling/foraging gun that Valmet or the equivalent Blaser could do very good work. While I've got no desire to be lost in the woods, getting diverted for a week or so could be a good time provided it wasn't too perilous!

 

[Europe]

Hodgeman, thank you for the contribution. I agree about the Valmet. We never owned one, but have seen a few and they are very nice looking combos. One of the gentlemen this morning has invited us to his home to look at his 12 gauge over 30-06 Valmet and if time permits we will try to visit him.

I would think that would be even a better survival combo than our swede/20ga.

We also had to be careful in Arizona when and how we used the Blaser and Savage due to the regulations, But that little Savage Hornet,/.20 gauge took a lot of small game and birds up to and including turkey

I loved your last statement and I agree!

 

[elkhunternm]

I would take one firearm (.30/06),but with two different loads. One load for big game and a second load for small game.

 

[Blkram]

I have never owned a combo gun...not even sure I want one now...but everyone has tbeir own preferences.

Honestly, I would prefer to be lost with just a rifle, and my daypack which contains a small axe and a small handsaw and extra knives and sharpener, and a survival kit. And while a larger rifle is overkill for small game and game birds, it can still harvest them with prudent shot placement, harvest larger game and provide adequate protection from other critters intent on your bodily harm. Although the diminutive 22LR is quite capable for more than most would think, if you had no other rifle, you could use it effectively for survival for a great length of time. It would definitely be more about hunting for survival!

And while I would prefer not to, I'm quite confident that I, and anyone with me, would still be surviving after any length of time. We may be leaner and meaner, but still alive and well! I would prefer to be lost up here for the summer; long daylight hours, more game and fishing, and warmer weather reducing time just keeping warm.

 

[hunternyny]

If in a survival mode I would think a combo rifle shotgun would be very helpful, for me, as to not limit my dinner opportunities. Birds and small game are sometimes more plentiful and even easier than large game, plus it does not limit your options when hungry. And to be honest I do not feel that I am as capable as Gil would be with just a rifle. I would also want some fishing equipment

Hodgeman, the Valmet would be my choice, I have handled them and they are very nice, but I do not own one. I have never even seen a Blaser. Personally I think the 22/410 Savage is useless, but the 20 gauge and Hornet might be a fun combination as it is actually could be useful

I again find myself agreeing with Hodgeman, a week would be quite enough for me, possibly two weeks max. The times we have been somewhat isolated and self dependent was relaxing and fun, but for me only in very small doses. To go a step further, I do not believe I am capable of literally carving out a life in the wilderness, with only a gun, knife, and axe. But, my hats off to people like Gil, Earle, and Cheyenne, who are capable of doing so

 

[Blkram]

The survival kit in my daypack includes fishing line and hooks!

 

[Polaris]

If I could take only one gun into the wilderness, it would be a 20 gauge pump action (12 if in elk/moose/bear country) with a 21" barrel and an Improved cylinder fixed or interchangeable choke, improved would probably never leave the gun, but full could come in handy for certain small game. Never been a fan of combos, I think they do a shotgun's job poorly and a rifle's job fairly well. On the other hand, with modern 20 guage foster, Brenneke or Guilandi style slugs, an open choked shotgun is good medicine on big game to 100 yards.

I think with a shotgun and 75 rounds #6 and 10 rounds of slugs, along with what I can fit in an ALICE frame pack, I could survive a long time in the Canadian wilderness. Winter might kill me or force me out unless I could find an existing cabin with some staples and supplies to hole up in. Note the subtle difference between surviving and living in comfort or anything resembling comfort. When I was young and dumb, I did exactly that. I disappeared in the Boundary waters for 3 1/2 weeks without resupply. Could have made it longer, but I was ready for a cold beer and something other than fish on the menu. Only firearm I brought was a Ruger .22 pistol, and I may or may not have eaten some illegal grouse on that trip.

 

[Europe]

Polaris, that would not be a bad choice. I have know several who preferred the shotgun. As with others I have mentioned who are capable of surviving long term in the wild, my hats off to you as well.

Gil. I have no doubt that you would survive and probably enjoy the experience while doing so.

John, Not only could Gil survive with just a rifle, I dare say he probably could do so also with just a bow and arrow. Before Cheyenne quit replying to my pm's, she once explained to me that she had hunted birds and small game with a bow and arrow and that Gil was even better with a bow than she is. She actually felt she could survive in the wild with only a bow and arrow. She also mentioned the trapping of small animals instead of shooting them.

Polaris, if you went on a 4 week wilderness trek today, would you take a different sidearm with your shotgun ?

Besides Gil and Cheyenne, does anyone else feel they could survive with just a bow and arrow for hunting ?

 

[Anonymous]

Besides Gil and Cheyenne, does anyone else feel they could survive with just a bow and arrow for hunting ?

Depends on the bow and that area- in the South I could do pretty well with just a compound bow. Not so much in AK in the mountains or with a traditional rig.

I had hoped to arrow a caribou this year. Didn't come together, but I took a fair number of ptarmigan and grouse and a few other small game critters with it though. In a lot of ways modern compounds are relatively fragile- not so sure how good they'd be for a wilderness survival scenario. It wouldn't take much to put one out of commission.

 

[35 Whelen]

April,
To address the survival part:
Dont know if you are firmilar with the story of Albert Johnson of Yukon fame? He was known to some as
"The Mad Trapper of Rat River"??
Now there is an interesting "survival story" of the longest manhunt In the history of the RCMP. In a showdown after firing many hundreds of rounds, into his cabin they finally used dynamite to blow up his cabin, and burn it down. Feeling certain they had certainly killed him as they approached the cabin
To make sure, he rose up from the rubble and fired at them with two guns a sawed off shotgun and his rifle!
They later discovered he had dug a tunnel and
Had been down in that ; while they would fire on him.The officer in charge then Al "Buns" King was wounded in that first volly of exchanges of gun fire with Johnson.
It was fairly well documented the tempertures and blizzard conditions, that the team of Mounties had to endure and 40 and 50 below zero were common that winter! The law was actually well supplied and restocked as they chased him all winter. They slept in tents , kept fires going all nite long, used dog teams, and had the finest eiderdown sleeping robes to snooze on. The conditions were so brutal they turned back numerous times to regroup and to restock.
Albert had no sleeping bag, no tent, only what little food he took the nite he left, Nothing but some matches , cartridges and a Savage 99 rifle.............
The officer in charge of catching him wrote in his journals,
He compared his ability to survive under heavy fire, being doged relentlessly for months during one of the coldest winters ever recorded was " only possible for wild animals" It was thought at the time because the Mounties
Already had the only two mountain passes to get out of that country guarded, he could not get away? But when a trapper told of seeing strange tracks over on the Eagle River they realized he had scaled the Richardson Mts and was already on the other side !!!! May then flew them over to try to catch back up. The Indians told that Johnson commonly snowshoed two miles in the time it took them to move one mile with a dogteam.
The mounties also noted they never sighted a campfire at nite ?? Or ever smelled woodsmoke. When they found his spots were He had slept or holed up in bad weather they figured he would only dare to lite a fire in the daytime or the foulest of weather. They documented the largest fire ring they ever found was never wider than the lenght of the service revolvers the mounties issue was at the time ??? They figured he did most everything at nite.
The officer in charge remarked when they finally got him,
That they likely NEVER would have got him; Had they not finally received help from Winnipeg; in the form of an AIRPLANE. Flown by Canadian legendary bush pilot "Wop May" Wop later remarked that it was common for Johnson to move 20 miles away in a single nite! The Mounties were finding it extreamely difficult to keep up, even with the help of a dog team. After Albert Johnson realized they had the airplane, He changed his tactics and traveled almost exclusively Without his snowshoes, Prefering to travel in the numerous Caribou trails, So they couldnt track him even from the air ! He fed himself with one snare, and when he dared to fire the rifle, slept without even a blanket in 50 below zero in a shelter he pawed into a snowbank with no fire, and out smarted the law dozens of times thru the manhunt. He easily outshot them in every firefight , until the local natives said he was doing things that where not
Humanly possible...........
It is probably one of the greatest survival storys ever recorded of "one man and a rifle" ever written. If you could find one man in One Hundred Thousand today; that could do what Albert Johnson did that winter , under those brutal conditions; I would be flabergasted.
There is a movie with Charles Bronson playing Johnson and Lee Marvin as the Mountie in charge........ It is a Hollywood version of what happened. Angie Dickerson is thrown into the mix to remind the good Sargent, what is waiting back home, as soon as he gets "his man".
The movie is called " Death Hunt"
The book by Dick North, which is well doumented and researched is called "Mad Trapper of Rat River". Pretty interesting how about everytime they cornered him he would kill, or wound some of them, with his very limited supply of ammo; while they fired hundreds of rounds at him with much better equip ment than Johnson had.....
The only other human being I can think of that may have been capable of staying alive in those conditions was a Russian elite mountain climber (likely the best that ever was) named "Anatoli Boukreev". If you dont know him or some of his accomplishments on Mt Everest ???
You owe it to yourself to read the book " Into thin Air" by Jon Krakauer; what this fellow did , like Johnson will leave you dumbfounded
That there are actually people that can do things that are so far behond what others would call impossible, will blow your mind!
But thats another story.........

 

[Polaris]

Amazing story 35. I'll have to find some hard copy for next winter.

In answer to Europe's question... I still do disappear in the wilderness, but generally for a week at a time now. Have to be back to work and all. I typically carry a .41 mag, and have no intention of potting any game with it. Simply for chasing off bears or any human predator I may run into. I go into an area with many fishing opportunities, so potting game is of little concern for such a short trip. If I were to do it long term, an accurate .22 handgun, like my .22/45 Ruger would be nice to have, but if I also had the shotgun, would be extra weight and not really necessary. For strictly survival sake, anywhere the snowshoe hare, marmot, woodchuck, opossum, muskrat are present, I could feed myself quite well with a #120 bodygrip steel trap. Never really learned snaring, too many hunting dogs where I trap. It's also very possible to net, snare or trap waterfowl, but fish are the low hanging fruit when there is not too much ice on the water, and very effective fishing tackle can be packed with very little weight and bulk.

 

[SJB358]

Cool recap E.. I think I'd like to read that book.

What's a shotgun? :mrgreen:

 

[Europe]

Scotty, it is that thing that Aleena throws at birds

Earle, thanks for the pm, as we discussed I have watched that movie and since I was cheering for the so called bad guy, I liked the ending. I have not read the book you speak of but will look for it

Hodgeman, good point. I am not sure about this but I think Cheyenne uses a very simple old fashion bow and arrow. She made one for a member of a now defunct forum. Hers involves animal parts, which was pretty cool.

how many here have made for their children or perhaps there father made for you a Bow and arrow. My dad made one for me and my husband made one for our son. They were not good enough to hunt with but fun to play with.

I have become like Dr Mike wife---if it only has a shower in the room we are roughing it.

Or like Scotty once said about Aleena's camps, she camps wherever two helicopters can land with all her stuff. I know he was teasing her, but what is funny is she did use a helicopter to get too base camp or close to it when she hunted Marco Polo. Scotty I can see it now when they said we will ride in this old jeep for a few hours, then ride a horse for a few hours and then climb for a few hours---you go ahead I will meet you there LOL

 

[hunternyny]

Haha, actually my father did make me a bow and arrow, but as mentioned it wasn't something I could hunt anything with. I did see the Bow and Arrows you speak of when in the Northwest Territories. Now those are made to hunt with.

Earle, what a great post, thank you

 

[35 Whelen]

Lol,
Funny how things change as you get older, I commonly thought nothing of flying along in horrible weather in my Super Cub until it would get so bad I would have to set down and wait it out. Sleeping at nite in the airplane until we could get going again. The standard fare was usually always the same thing every meal while you waited.................. Ramen Noodles. I always carryed a little one gas burner. I could simply drain out some gas from the airplane and go for days on Noodles. A candy bar was a luxury and savored. When we Wolf hunted in Alaska in the wintertime, often we found ourselves on the backside of a Mountain range, and the weather would change so much from the time you left at daylight, So that by late afternoon, when you were trying to get home, the passes would all be closed; and you had to set down and wait it out, It was common for it to be 25 below zero at night, and I remember one time we stayed out in Mystic Pass, and it was 46 below in the morning!! I had a Eddie Bauer KaraKoram sleeping bag(90x90" with 5lbs of best down) that was advertised to be good to -40; but I can tell you with full winter wool dress on ,it was still pretty darn uncomfortable . When I think how tough Albert Johnson had to be; to do what he did I am certain I have never know ANYONE that is even close to that level of fittness.................
When I was a kid here in Maine there were still quite a few fellas that had never done anything but work in the woods all their lives, mostly with an axe and pulp hook cutting 4ft wood and piling it by hand , they were in incredible physical condition, but I am sure; that none of them could have followed Albert Johnson. Or even close.
So now its so much clearer what they used to say " my idea of base camp is a Holiday Inn" lol.