Two identical groups.....what should this tell me?

[cloverleaf]

Sorry guys this would be easier if I had pics but that has not been replaced since the fire yet..... Anyway, My good old (frustrating) 250-3000 Savage is at it again. Shot two identical, and I mean identical groups with my rifle last night. First shot is dead on 1.5 in high at 100 yds. Shot #2 is still dead center, but two inches high (1/2 inch higher). Shot # three is another inch higher (now 3 inches high) and a half an inch to the right.

I check my target and wait about 10 minutes and shoot a second group. As I said, It was virtually identical, maybe an 1/8 inch different on one shot, but I could lay the tagets on top of one another and see daylight through two of the holes.

I shot both groups with a bout a two minute wait between shots.

So, what is this telling me? The barrel is fully free floated, far as I can tell the screws are tight. The "groups" are so close to identical I can kinda rule out shooter error, I think. I cant miss that consistently! In reality there would be six shots whithin an inch and a half or less. I can almost live with that but I want those "cloverleaf" groups. The pattern seems way to consistient to varying degrees with a variety of loads.

Is this a bedding issue? I assume its not the Leupold as it was so repeatable. What do you think? Thanks CL

 

[JD338]

CL

Sounds like a bedding issue. Try shimmimg the front of the action with a business card cut to size and see how it shoots. I am thinking a pillar bedding job may be in order.

JD338

 

[SJB358]

I agree with Jim. Probably bedding, but honestly, as long as the rifle is repeating consistently, I would keep it as is. Sounds like it is shooting well. I would take it out to 200-300 and verify. That seems to tell me more than 100 yard shooting sometimes. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

If the action screws are properly torqued and the barrel is free floated, pillar bedding is the next logical step. Just for completeness, ensure that the rings and bases are properly torqued (although loose rings or bases wouldn't likely reproduce a string as you describe.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Another way to look at it is you shot two consecutive, 1 1/2 inche groups. It's only happened twice, so it's hard to tell if it's a pattern, or just random luck it happened that way.
Shoot 6 with no break and see what happens. If it's a bedding issue, this should exasperate the issue and make it more apparent. At the very least this will help you decide if you want to let your friend, what was his name, Bubba?, bed your rifle.

 

[257 Ackley]

Another way to look at it is you shot two consecutive, 1 1/2 inche groups. It's only happened twice, so it's hard to tell if it's a pattern, or just random luck it happened that way.
Shoot 6 with no break and see what happens. If it's a bedding issue, this should exasperate the issue and make it more apparent. At the very least this will help you decide if you want to let your friend, what was his name, Bubba?, bed your rifle.

+1 - instead of the 2 minute wait between each shot, shoot 5-6 with a much shorter time gap to see if they keep climbing.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

tighten your action screws
RR

 

[cloverleaf]

Um.....well Bubba aint gettin' a chance at this one. Some one else already full length beded the stock. I free floated it.....but the bedding around the rear action screw is a little suspect. Years ago a piece of the bedding broke out and I glued it back in (or maybe bubba did). Maybe time to pillar this one. Never figured a rifle could be such a money pit. I havea bold trigger on order.....CL

 

[DrMike]

Never figured a rifle could be such a money pit.

Cloverleaf,

Welcome to the world of riflery. Knowing that the end of the world was coming, I withdrew large sums of money to spend at the local gun store. However, my wife stopped me as I attempted to exit the house. "Where do you think you're going with that roll of bills?" she demanded. "Why, knowing that everything is coming to an end, I didn't want to leave anything for the guvmint," I declared in a fit of honesty. With a look that would freeze the heart of any man, she insisted that I deposit it in her hand. Well, the world didn't end and I didn't buy another rifle today. However, it doesn't change the fact that the sport demands time and money. Ah, yes, it is a fine and pleasant misery.

 

[BK]

Doc,

How long have you been married? Haven't you learned the art of subterfuge yet?

 

[cloverleaf]

I would say he's been married for a while..... descibing anything as a "fine pleasant misery" about suns it up..... Oh, wait...did he mean the rifle?!?!?? :? CL

 

[DrMike]

I'm not divulging any more lest my child bride somehow gain access to this forum.

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

Definately married a while. He's a pro knowing to call it a draw before his bride somehow joins the forum and then the honey-do list becomes longer and a higher priority than hunting season!

Heaven forbid she ever tries such a thing. Reminds me of that Brad Paisley song... :lol:

 

[BK]

Jeez, cringing at the thought of all of my rifles flying out the door...

 

[Oldtrader3]

Don't ever lay all of your rifles out of the floor, where your wife can see them! You must be a newlywed or something?

 

[BK]

Nah, check out 1:15 or so in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwRrKaq0IyY

 

[nodak7mm]

Yrs back I read an article on "Gun Parts" by McManus or other satirical writer. Flippin hilarious.... To sum it up: "Whatchya got there Honey?", Nothing Dear, just gun parts. "Thats nice Honey, as long as your not buying guns"....

One of the funniest stories I ever read... Thankfully, most of my guns are classed as "The Pretty One", the "Silver One" or the "Heavy". Havent bought but one gun in the last couple yrs, but I gotta problem with parts...... LOL! :mrgreen:

Rod

CL, something to think about:

Another option is; Its your Bench Technique...... Are you breaking your positiion, walking/wheeling away from behind the rifle. I dont cotton much to the theory of waiting minutes between shots unless its 90* outside and you have a pencil barrel. I subscribe to the philosphy of shoot it like your hunting and gauge its performance from there... If your shooting more than 3 shots in more than 30 seconds at a deer or coyote, time to take up ping pong....

 

[Guest]

CL, I'd sure look at a couple of things. First off, Rod is right on the money with his comments above. I shoot three shots just as fast as I can accurately shoot them when I'm at the range, and that's my group. I've done the whole "shoot...wait...shoot...wait" thing, and it's usually a little tighter groups, and more consistent on the chronograph, but it's not realistic. If the rifle isn't giving problems like 5" groups, I don't worry much over the barrel heat from three shots in succession. As a side note, Rod's also on the money with the form question, though that might be something you've already thought about.

The second thing I'd look at is the barrel channel between shots. If you shoot three and it's still giving you the same groupings, which aren't terrible by any standards, you might shoot one, check the float, shoot again, check the float, etc. It sounds almost like there's some slight barrel pressure building up when the barrel gets hot, since you're seeing the rifle walk up the target. Heat does funny things to steel.

Beyond that, it may be that the rifle just needs to be taken down, disassembled (scope and mounts off) and reassembled. Sometimes this will release the toe or finger of a gremlin that's hung somewhere in the assembly, and once he's free to run off, the rifle will behave more consistently after that. Just a thought.

As for the bedding issue, I'd take a look at coating up the action with some release agent, and just spot-bedding that little busted area. Just gently file it out a bit on the edges to get rid of the busted or loose parts, and then refill it with bedding compound and seat the action. If it's just a small piece, it's easy to fill, and won't be a real pain. Or you could dremel out the whole thing and go for a complete rebed, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

[SJB358]

I dont cotton much to the theory of waiting minutes between shots unless its 90* outside and you have a pencil barrel. I subscribe to the philosphy of shoot it like your hunting and gauge its performance from there... If your shooting more than 3 shots in more than 30 seconds at a deer or coyote, time to take up ping pong....

I'm glad I am not the only one that shoots like this. I tend to shoot three rounds about as fast as I can accurately shoot them. Within reason, I like to take my time, but I don't wait any pre determined amount of time. It is two entirely different trains of thought though. Scotty

 

[Oldtrader3]

Scotty, I do the same thing. If a rifle won't put three shots into a group in 60 seconds, I don't want the rifle. What if you do mess up and shoot an elk and (heaven forbid) hit a branch that you don't see and have to shoot three times to finish the job on an amped up elk at 300 yards?

My criteria for a game rifle is three shots in a small group in a short period or that rifle is not for me. That is why I sold my .280 Remington Mountain Rifle, it would not do that. That rifle strung even 3 shot groups.